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California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

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Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not very useful, since most people don't work in technical professions. But if you want to pursue further technical studies, then that's a different ballgame. To me, the question isn't whether Calculus will be useful to somebody who intends to study nursing, but rather whether the doorways to other venues will be made that much narrower, or closed altogether. Under Equitable Math, all children must be at the same lev…

> Under Equitable Math, all children must be at the same level, That's not true; the proposed Framework model shifts from a focus on breadth differentiation to a focus on depth differentiation. You could just as well argue that the existing approach tries to force all students to be “at the same level”, since it neglects the differentiation opportunity that the proposed framework focuses on. That would, also, be wron…

You are mistaken. Under the Equitable Math proposal, all children are to be in the same technical class regardless of their ability. Children will not be allowed to take Algebra in middle school, and children will not be allowed to take Calculus until specifically the senior year. Differentiation may only occur at the senior year of high school.

The Common Core does not neglect differentiation opportunity, and neither does it dictate or detail that children must be in one class over another; that is left up to each state. Under the Common Core as implemented in California, children may take Algebra with an Algebra teacher based on their individual ability. The entire Common Core specification for math can be read in one day.

The Common Core does dictate learning targets to be met for any particular official class, whether that is Algebra I/II or Geometry. The Common Core also emphasizes deep learning over rote memorization, but it critically does not require that all students must be at the same level. This is the central point of contention, and not whether the Common Core ought go even deeper.

As a detail, note that Californian classrooms may have around 40 children in a math class, and that penalties for classroom sizes end in middle school. These are the conditions under which math teachers must address individual variability.

Equitable Math would be a SOLID win for private schools and after-school math programs such as RSM.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#362
In Soviet Union algebra and geometry were taught from 5th to 11th grade to every kid in the country. And 10th & 11th grade algebra text-book was edited by Kolmogorov himself [0]. No surprise that _Russian School of Mathematics_ [1] after-school program is becoming very popular in the USA.

[0] Search for "algebra" in https://www.kolmogorov.com/Books.html

[1] https://www.russianschool.com/

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#363

Here's a revolutionary idea that pretty much all of the world adopts, if students are having trouble with a topic, get them to do more of it, instead of running away from it. I always find it hilarious that the pre college education in US is so messed up. Instead of doing Algebra 1, Algebra 2, calculus, geometry as one subject that you do in a year and then completely forgetting about it till the next time you have t…

There are lots of stories like this. Lot of selection bias. That is, wealthier and/or smarter people who come to the US.

I’ve taken though linear, diffeq, and discrete. Rarely use them. It’s a massive waste for most people.

They should be concentrating on what I would call “home economics”. That is, economics of the home. Edu on budget balancing, taxes, cost of things so you don’t eat out so much, cost of repair so you learn to fix things, etc.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#364

Not from California, but I took algebra in 7th grade - it was the advanced math course in my public middle school. It was a much-welcomed safe haven from the other classes - the middle schoolers here were actually SMART. In that class I sat next to a guy who taught me how to program the TI-84. We would spend all class programming, making games, and just learning. Now, over a decade later, I am a professional software…

Doesn't sound like your smart classes ever taught you to read the article. The recommendations aren't mandatory and will likely be adopted by schools that are underfunded and struggling. If you're concerned about the gifted kids at those schools, consider that gifted kids aren't the center of the universe.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#365

Here's a revolutionary idea that pretty much all of the world adopts, if students are having trouble with a topic, get them to do more of it, instead of running away from it. I always find it hilarious that the pre college education in US is so messed up. Instead of doing Algebra 1, Algebra 2, calculus, geometry as one subject that you do in a year and then completely forgetting about it till the next time you have t…

You can't get people to 'do more of something' if they don't show up for class, and fundamentally don't care because none of their peers do.

'Regular Teaching' works 100% well everywhere around the world where students show up ready to learn.

This is 100% a community/parent/student issue.

More conscientiousness, community participation, stable / 2 parent / married homes, 'Some Kind of Health Insurance', steady jobs, low crime, no druggie/prison parents, not living in fear, no gangs, no gang culture, other students who have normal levels of academic (and other) interests.

And they'll do fine.

Big reforms in Healthcare, Justice and for Economic Stability / Jobs would go a long way, but it will also take community participation.

It's not the curriculum or teachers. They work fine everywhere else, they work fine in Cali.

Kids that have something resembling what we might think of as a 'normal childhood' will do 'mostly fine'.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with high schools that have about half of their math faculty as Calculus teachers What does this mean? Is there some special qualification or licence to be allowed to teach calculus?

A typical American high school will not have enough students enrolled in calculus to require more than one calculus teacher.

Is it that their parents are indifferent to their kids' education? Or they don't realise that calculus is important in many fields? Or they just want their kids to become a lawyer?

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#367
post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a few years ago I could have written a comment like this, but now I've been a teacher for a couple of years now. It is hard to teach something. Being able to do it is isn't anywhere near the level of expertise needed to: * Do it up on a board at a moderately quick but consistent cadence, with engagement and narrating the whole part through. * Not be taken off track by inevitable distractions. * Understand the…

I didn't realise teachers went under some kind of assessment to teach particular parts of their subjects. In the UK a mathematics teacher is just a mathematics teacher. They all have to teach calculus because that's part of the curriculum. If you couldn't teach calculus then you couldn't be a mathematics teacher. (That's not a boast - we're poorer and less effective at maths than you are.) What do you do if you're a…

> I didn't realise teachers went under some kind of assessment to teach particular parts of their subjects.

This is hugely variable within the US.

> In the UK a mathematics teacher is just a mathematics teacher. They all have to teach calculus because that's part of the curriculum. If you couldn't teach calculus then you couldn't be a mathematics teacher.

I think there's a lot of math teachers who would be a bit iffy teaching Calculus that have department chairs that schedule them to teach earlier math instead.

> (That's not a boast - we're poorer and less effective at maths than you are.)

I don't feel like our mathematics system is very good at all.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#368

Here's a revolutionary idea that pretty much all of the world adopts, if students are having trouble with a topic, get them to do more of it, instead of running away from it. I always find it hilarious that the pre college education in US is so messed up. Instead of doing Algebra 1, Algebra 2, calculus, geometry as one subject that you do in a year and then completely forgetting about it till the next time you have t…

This isn't that different in the US. Algebra 1 to Algebra 2 to Precalculus to Calculus is a sequence that's taught over many years and there's no big dump. Geometry is the only exception from that sequence (unless you're counting Statistics or Computer Science, which are generally optional). Most students that are applying to competitive colleges are generally going to take a math course every year - there's no big dump that you seem to be envisioning.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#369
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This policy has nothing to do with the topic of algebra. This is code for advanced math, because algebra is typically considered advanced for < 9th grade children. Since the organizations feel ashamed that they're failing certain demographics as evidenced by being under-represented in the advanced classes, they're just scrapping the advanced classes for everyone. Truly disgraceful

U.S. is the only country I know that considers algebra advanced. It's fundamental in the rest of the world.

They don't, this person is not a reliable source.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#370

Not from California, but I took algebra in 7th grade - it was the advanced math course in my public middle school. It was a much-welcomed safe haven from the other classes - the middle schoolers here were actually SMART. In that class I sat next to a guy who taught me how to program the TI-84. We would spend all class programming, making games, and just learning. Now, over a decade later, I am a professional software…

The fact that you were successful because the guy who sat next to you in class knew how to unlock the programming mode of your calculator is incidental. Why didn't your teacher do it? Congratulations on escaping the system that disadvantaged you. The best thing about programming is that it defines a notation for doing mathematics that doesn't trigger people who went to public schools. Be careful about calling yourself a professional software engineer. In many places you can be sent to jail for claiming any two out of the three words in that title.
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