The latest campus cancellation is different • Hacker News Board

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#361

Post by peterangular » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 5:37 PM UTC

FiberBundle wrote: post #325

peterangular wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seems like there were two things Abbot did "wrong", one was to argue against affirmative action, and the other was to use a nazi reference to make his point. Which in the current political climate is a horrible look for the school. I get why they dropped him - for better or worse lots of people are fed up with the promise of an ideal meritocracy... especially younger folks. And, for better or worse, those younger f…

I don't understand the argument of people who partly justify affirmative action in college admissions with the lack of a perfect meritocracy. So just because the ideal of a perfect meritocracy is illusive, decisions shouldn't primarily be based on merit anymore?

This all is in good faith, just sharing my ever-evolving thoughts on the topic to answer the question:

For better or worse meritocracies are exclusive in nature when you take systemic societal issues into consideration like wealth gaps. In America, we've historically done so much to hurt minorities I believe we've arguably held religions/ethnicities/classes/genders back from the same opportunities that I have as a straight middleclass white guy.

Is it the fault of the meritocracy that it is exclusive in this arguably unfair way? Nope - and I don't think that we should get away with meritocracies at all. But I do think we have to take into account external societal conditions when implementing one and I see affirmative action as this measure.

Schools are unique in society that they're a ladder up - my time in college was huge. Arguably, education is one of the most fair ways to lift people out of the non-ideal societal crap I was discussing in the first paragraph... so things like affirmative action are implemented to enhance marginalized people's access to opportunities I often take for granted.

This issue for me is a hard one as I can't exclude the reality of history and systemic societal problems along side a school's unique position to be the ladder up for people who have been crapped on like I haven't.

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> decisions shouldn't primarily be based on merit anymore?

I think we still need to make decisions based on merit absolutely - and I think we need to strive for the ideals of meritocracy as a society. I just think that active measures are taken to try to balance things out - affirmative action being one of those... for better or worse.

Affirmative action is just a really complex issue. Anecdotally, I admit I am glad that I am in California now where it's illegal in regards to employment - and honestly... selfishly so. In Iowa affirmative action was a thing.

Man I really hope the Diablo 2 auth servers are back online....

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#362

Post by rscoots » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 5:39 PM UTC

morelisp wrote: post #347

rscoots wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you respond to this point then by the author? >If every cringeworthy analogy to the Third Reich were grounds for canceling talks, hundreds of professors—and thousands of op-ed columnists—would no longer be welcome on campus.

It's a weak argument. First, there's a big gap between "canceling talks" and "no longer welcome on campus." Secondly, it's not like it was a recanted off-the-cuff remark or an ill-advised mailing list post dredged up from his grad student days - he published it in a national periodical[1] not two months ago. This at least suggests he's not a good communicator. [1] With all the usual caveats about Newsweek today being…

You'll admit that the category of 'anyone who has compared mainstream American politics to Nazism in a published article' is a pretty wide net though?

Although we find it distasteful it seems to be a pretty common refrain/analogy of those in politics & media.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#363

Post by shkkmo » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 5:39 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #292

ghaff wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, in the US, there doesn't need to be a "just cause." Someone has become a headache or embarrassment for us--for whatever unprotected reason--is sufficient.

In the US sodomy was a crime too. Laws can change. Labour law is not written in stone. And even with current laws, where there "need not be a just cause", there are protections against unjust causes (e.g. because they found out you're jewish, or you're fat, or whatever) and "because a mob campaigned against one" can be added to that. "But, under current law the business could just say they fired them for their own ne…

And what about twitter mobs that point out legitimate fireable offenses (like police brutality )? Would the fact that a twitter mob raised the issue help prevent the legitimatw firing?

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#364

Post by poetaster » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 5:40 PM UTC

metagame wrote: post #206

civilized wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The activists who demanded this aren't the ones who need to be persuaded on climate change. MIT just handed the center and right-of-center, full of actual climate skeptics who need to be persuaded, another cancel culture event. Your whole post hinges on the assumption that the prospects of fighting climate change hinge on the approval of college town progressives. In reality, their approval is the least important thi…

[flagged]

I think you are missing the point that affirmative action, which I am for, is done a disservice when we descend to PR games. Knee jerk reactions serve no one.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#365

Post by unclebucknasty » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 5:41 PM UTC

civilized wrote: post #289

throwaway984393 wrote: post #270

Actually it's not different. University lecturers have been protested or cancelled for decades for reasons unrelated to their topic, usually due to political beliefs or corporate interests that clashed with students' ideals. "Cancel culture" is specifically about "personal" societal reforms, which is what makes it different than the older complaints about general politics. Back in the day it was "edgy" to protest or…

I get the historical analogy with anti-Vietnam War protesters. I just don't agree that they are actually the moral equivalent of anti-anti-racial-preference protesters. And I definitely don't believe that the majority will see it that way in a few decades. The moral foundations for Vietnam War opposition are much intellectually deeper and ideologically broader than those supporting racial preferences. A medieval Cath…

>...much intellectually deeper and ideologically broader than those supporting racial preferences. A medieval Catholic...

Sure, if you narrow the topic of racial preferences down to the literal instantiation of exactly that mechanism, then broaden the topic of the Vietnam War out to historical philosophies of War in general, then of course the latter reads "intellectually deeper" and "broader".

But, these are all just discussions about what is morally just and, when society fails to provide justice, what we consider appropriate remedies.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#366

Post by poetaster » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 5:43 PM UTC

metagame wrote: post #296

civilized wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what you're saying and it's reasonable. I think you greatly overestimate the objective rigor and correctness of your analysis, but I get it. Sanctioning widely-held views as not meritorious alienates a lot of people too. They don't seem to figure into your calculations. Based on your other posts, you seem to think that the most important audience for the talk is prospective climate change researchers, who you b…

You're wording this in a way that's deliberately representing your ideological opponents in the worst possible faith and light, and if nothing else it demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of not only the views of your opponents, but of people who would be sympathetic to your views if you would take ten seconds to apply tact to your words. This is the exact opposite of a good-faith argument and a demonstratio…

Who is imputing that a nationwide published scientist has no tact but is themself the model of said tact. Myopic.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#367

Post by peterangular » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 5:44 PM UTC

fighterpilot wrote: post #353

peterangular wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seems like there were two things Abbot did "wrong", one was to argue against affirmative action, and the other was to use a nazi reference to make his point. Which in the current political climate is a horrible look for the school. I get why they dropped him - for better or worse lots of people are fed up with the promise of an ideal meritocracy... especially younger folks. And, for better or worse, those younger f…

.

> It's a horrible look only according to incurious, oversensitive, ideological and closed-minded people.

Oof - shots fired. I think you're including me in this group of "people" so I'm going to bow out as this is going nowhere productive.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#368

Post by newbamboo » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #299

zimpenfish wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> llegal to fire someone over a twitter mob [...] Anti-lynching laws Are you really comparing getting fired from your job to a lynching? Because one of them seems a whole lot less serious than the other...

> Are you really comparing getting fired from your job to a lynching? Blacks used to get fired (or not hired) from jobs, or thrown out of towns and establishments for being black on the demand of racist white mobs. Is that serious enough for someone to make a comparison with a historical issue like lynching, or it should involve a hanging too? Lynchings didn't always involve death, sometimes it was "just" beatings, n…

Before lynching were stonings. Bob Dylan said that he wouldn’t feel so all alone, if everybody got stoned. He was on too something.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#369

Post by fighterpilot » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

whitexn--g28h wrote: post #193

air7 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

E.g. In the orignal "Women make 70 cents for every dollar a man makes" gov memo, it was also said that Asian men make 115 cents for every dolar a white man makes. That doesn't fit the narrative so it's just ignored.

The gap between white and Asian outcomes is due to immigration policies which make it easier for wealthy people to get in. The US imports rich asians who can afford to send their kids to MIT, the rich get richer ect. The gender pay gap is a different issue and doesn’t need to address immigration policy.

Vietnamese Americans, the descendants of refugees from a war-torn country, make more than White Americans.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#370

Post by devdas » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 5:47 PM UTC

wrycoder wrote: post #139

devdas wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, cancel those who want to cancel the intolerant. It does help to think of tolerance as a peace treaty.

Don't you mean, “Cancel those who want to cancel the tolerant.” The post to which you responded said, “Only cancel the cancellors.”

Ah yes, I misread the parent as desiring to cancel the people demanding cancellation of the intolerant.