Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party • Hacker News Board

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#361

Post by Loughla » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 12:46 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #324

qsort wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect a huge part of Macron's success was his opponent. France elections have a top-2 runoff, and I wouldn't be surprised if many electors were like "I don't like Macron but I really don't want Le Pen to win". The whole "socially progressive, economically middle of the road" political coalition that would win every election on HN is extremely unpopular in the real world.

> "socially progressive, economically middle of the road" political coalition that would win every election on HN is extremely unpopular in the real world. ... except Germany? I think it's more popular on the ground than you'd think, but it's very unpopular in the media who like their politics to be professional wrestling.

No, it is very unpopular in the US in those who regularly vote in primaries. The primary decides the race, for many, many elections. The presidential race is not exempt from this, either. To draw enough primary voters to make the ballot in one of the two major parties, candidates are, increasingly, needing to take extreme stances on most social and economic issues. (for example, look at how many people came out for Trump in the 2016 primary. In my parents' county in their Midwest state, the polling place literally ran out of republican ballots)

Pandering to the extremes, and the movement of many politicians toward extreme views is a symptom of the disease, not the disease itself.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#362

Post by richwater » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 12:50 PM UTC

realce wrote: post #353

I raised over 400k for Andrew's POTUS run and devoted a year of my life to running his official Reddit (104k subs at peak), then joined a SuperPAC to further his positions after the run. The campaign team was full of fools who squandered almost every good turn received, most campaign workers were paid less than minimum wage, and Andrew eventually stole the pac's name and branding - Humanity Forward - put everyone out…

> I've given so much time to this person it's insane.

_why_?

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#363

Post by datenarsch » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 12:50 PM UTC

Karto wrote: post #158

The top line, "Not Left. Not Right. Forward." kind of reminds me of Macron's "En Marche" ("Let's Go") that took over France in a storm, taking over the presidency AND the parliament only one year after its foundation, with very few previously known political figures in its ranks. The whole thing looked like doing management rather than politics, and offered an alternative to fed-up voters who didn't dare turn to the…

Macron's "En Marche" never took over France "in a storm". That is just media spin. Macron is your typical establishment droid and has always been perceived as such by the majority of the French population. The only reason he won the presidency is because of the extreme vilification of Marine Le Pen by mainstream media.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#364

Post by Loughla » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 12:52 PM UTC

h2odragon wrote: post #338

netcan wrote: post #325

What's missing here, IMO, is a party. Who's with him? Do you have defectors from the 2 parties? Independents or popular figures joining up? Candidates being stood? A political party is not a manifesto, it's an organisation. I actually think there's room for a party to start gaining ground in the US. There are so many elected offices that the surface area is huge. Great for "guerilla tactics." IE, earning easy victori…

A political party in the USA needs an engaged, interested, reliable representative for every single county election commission, at the very least. The Libertarians don't have that. The Greens never bothered with rural areas. The Perot believers and the Tea Parties had boots enough but no co-ordination.

The green party has such an opportunity in rural areas. I've never understood why they refuse to see any amount of trade-off. Living in a rural area for a majority of my life, I can tell you that (not to make a no-true-Scotsman argument, but) most people are very concerned about the environment. When you are constantly surrounded by reminders that the world is changing, it is impossible to refute that fact. That many still deny global warming while accepting that things are getting worse seems like bickering over semantics at this point.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#365

Post by V__ » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 12:53 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #324

qsort wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect a huge part of Macron's success was his opponent. France elections have a top-2 runoff, and I wouldn't be surprised if many electors were like "I don't like Macron but I really don't want Le Pen to win". The whole "socially progressive, economically middle of the road" political coalition that would win every election on HN is extremely unpopular in the real world.

> "socially progressive, economically middle of the road" political coalition that would win every election on HN is extremely unpopular in the real world. ... except Germany? I think it's more popular on the ground than you'd think, but it's very unpopular in the media who like their politics to be professional wrestling.

A lot of people seem to think that Germany is "socially progressive, economically middle of the road" but that is not the case. Angela Merkel and her CDU/CSU party like to pretend and brand themselves as such, but they don't vote that way.

Also, Germans as a whole can be categorized as liberal regarding social policies but very conservative regarding economic ones.

However, the election last week was a big upset to her party and might finally lead to a new government coalition with the policies you mentioned.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#366

Post by hef19898 » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 12:54 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #336

hef19898 wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, the "a republic isn't a democracy" trope. That debunked so often, I won't even go there here. You're right with the french revolution so. Doesn't change the fact the French supported the US a lot. And yes, the French Revolution is seen, rightly so if you ask me despite the Terror and so on, as the first real modern democracy in Europe. At a time when Europe was reigned by Kings and Emperors. A side note, I really…

> A side note, I really don't get why Napoleon is seen in such bad light. I’m really surprised that he isn’t more often seen in a bad light. He started a gigantic war, mobilized millions to expand an empire, crowned himself emperor, etc… When do we draw the line? I think as a society we are very hypocritical and nonsensical in who we venerate. People were having serious discussions about how “offensive” the Lincoln M…

51-49 falls apart because the 51 can dictate the 49, I assume? Great, then what about having the 49 (as of total vote) having found ways to dictate the 51? That would be even more instable, wouldn't it?

And as far as Napoleon is concerned, he lived in a period were conquering swaths of land was more or less seen as normal. The Napoleonic Wars grew out of the Revolutionary Wars, and those were started, partially, by European Monarchies to contain democratic France. Sure, Napoleon pushed that to the extreme. Equally true is that it was the British Empire that pushed all of the Alliances against Napoleon. That is not nearly as clean cut as WW2 concerning the bad guys.

The only country that really has discussions about statues is the US. And those statues came up as part of a dedicated, racist-motivated propaganda program from the loosing side decades after the war. I don't see any Napoleon statues in the UK for example, or Rommel ones in Germany.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#367

Post by adventured » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 12:56 PM UTC

badRNG wrote: post #349

Thrymr wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole "socially progressive, economically middle of the road" political coalition that would win every election on HN is extremely unpopular in the real world. I don't know about that, it has won the popular vote in 7 of the past 8 US presidential elections.

I mean let's look: - 2020 - Biden - 2016 - Trump - 2012 - Obama - 2008 - Obama - 2004 - Bush - 2000 - Bush - 1996 - Clinton - 1992 - Clinton I'd think that Bush represented a socially conservative position, and I'm not entirely certain that Trump was any more conservative on particular social issues. Additionally, I think Clinton represented a middle of the road approach to social issues (RFRA, massive deregulation,…

Bush was definitely socially conservative. Trump was closer to middle of the road socially.

Clinton was middle of the road socially for his time, at best. Trump was more progressive than Clinton.

See for Clinton regressiveness: signed welfare reform (Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act); was adamantly against gay marriage (the Defense of Marriage Act); don't ask don't tell; aggressively championed one of the worst human rights violations in US history in his tough on crime campaign (1994 crime bill); Clinton did practically nothing to advance drug legalization and instead furthered the oppressive war on drugs program by the US Govt; started another major US war; financial and telecommunications deregulation; Religious Freedom Restoration Act.

Clinton was an excellent conservative.

And when it comes to the border and immigration (as a mark against Trump on the social score), the Obama Admin deported more people per year than the Trump Admin did.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#368

Post by hef19898 » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 12:57 PM UTC

ByteJockey wrote: post #329

hef19898 wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, the "a republic isn't a democracy" trope. That debunked so often, I won't even go there here. You're right with the french revolution so. Doesn't change the fact the French supported the US a lot. And yes, the French Revolution is seen, rightly so if you ask me despite the Terror and so on, as the first real modern democracy in Europe. At a time when Europe was reigned by Kings and Emperors. A side note, I really…

> A side note, I really don't get why Napoleon is seen in such bad light. He tried to conquer a bunch of places. That's generally not seen kindly in the modern era. Also he lost, which generally allows one's opponents to control the narrative.

Which makes you wonder how history would have turned out if Napoleon would have been as stupid to go to Russia. Imagine he would have taken the most powerful army of the time, including staunch (more or less) allies (incl. the Prussians, minor German powers, Austrians) to Spain against Wellington. Interesting what-if. Just proofs that you don't go to war with Russia or try to conquer Afghanistan.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#369

Post by locallost » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 12:57 PM UTC

richwater wrote: post #362

realce wrote: post #353

I raised over 400k for Andrew's POTUS run and devoted a year of my life to running his official Reddit (104k subs at peak), then joined a SuperPAC to further his positions after the run. The campaign team was full of fools who squandered almost every good turn received, most campaign workers were paid less than minimum wage, and Andrew eventually stole the pac's name and branding - Humanity Forward - put everyone out…

> I've given so much time to this person it's insane. _why_?

Because (s)he believed in something and wanted to make a change. And a lot of times this will be for nothing, but believing enough in something to sacrifice a lot or even yourself is how almost any type of progress happens.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#370

Post by irae » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 1:00 PM UTC

ricardobeat wrote: post #242

Karto wrote: post #158

The top line, "Not Left. Not Right. Forward." kind of reminds me of Macron's "En Marche" ("Let's Go") that took over France in a storm, taking over the presidency AND the parliament only one year after its foundation, with very few previously known political figures in its ranks. The whole thing looked like doing management rather than politics, and offered an alternative to fed-up voters who didn't dare turn to the…

In Brazil a couple parties sprouted up in the past few years: Novo (New) and MBL (Free Brazil Movement). They both position themselves as being "outside" of the left-right spectrum. And of course, it's a marketing trick to capture people who are 'fed up with the system' and don't realize it is an impossible proposition. If you're in government you'll inevitably have to position yourself on all issues, including labou…

I never seen any of them put themselves "outside" of the left-right spectrum.

I probably read what they say in a different way. What I see both movements doing is not align enough to either side to position themselves as such.

You said it yourself: they need to position themselves on "all issues". If you align yourself 90% to the left or right, you can align with a traditional party. If you split your positions 40-60% on the issues, you are neither right or left wing.

One example for both Novo and MBL: Both movements align in economic ideas closer to right wing parties, but both movements are pro environmental polices. Traditionally you don't see political groups in Brazil that support both ideas.