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WhatsApp lead and other tech experts fire back at Apple’s Child Safety plan

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Re: WhatsApp lead and other tech experts fire back at Apple’s Child Safety plan

#361

Post by romwell »

sumeno wrote: post #272
romwell wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And now it's pretty much the same thing, but with a SWAT team knocking your door out when the ML messes up. Yay progress.

The SWAT team is knocking on your door after you've uploaded multiple instances of child porn to iCloud and those instances have been verified to actually be child porn by a human. That sounds fine to me.

>The SWAT team is knocking on your door after you've uploaded multiple instances of child porn

...or whatever gets sneaked into a database that nobody can take a look at, and whose maintainers have zero obligations to you.

>and those instances have been verified to actually be child porn by a human.

Yeah, SWAT teams doing their homework before shooting people up is precisely why SWATting is a completely innocent thing to do and never put anyone in danger.

And that also does nothing in case of "neural" (aka blackbox) hash collision, where the Algorithm mistakes a normal picture for CP. The "human" you have in your dreams doesn't have access to the actual file you have on your device, right? (At least, that's the sales pitch for on-device privacy). They won't know until they get you.

Personally, I would hope that HN people know better than to blindly trust an opaque algorithm running off an opaque database to never make a mistake in where it sends SWAT teams.. but here we are.

Re: WhatsApp lead and other tech experts fire back at Apple’s Child Safety plan

#362

Post by thw0rted »

studentrob wrote: post #349
thw0rted wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think EU policy only impacts the EU, you didn't pay attention to what happened with GDPR. Some companies might scan only EU-to-EU communications, some might scan communications where only one end is in the EU, and some might just scan everything because why build two completely separate systems rather than just doing whatever is compliant everywhere you operate?

Maybe, what's your point? You want this legislation to pass? You seem intent on delivering news of a future dystopia. I don't think any of these scanned systems or policies will survive in the long run. They're inherently insecure and won't lead to growth.

Your post I originally replied to said

> They've tried to do this for decades and have failed.... Let's see how voters like it.

My "point" is that I thought the same way you did -- look what a mess Clipper Chip was, they always want backdoors but surely a voice of reason will show up, etc -- but something has changed. Couple the vote in the EU with the way the major tech companies reacted to GDPR (you'd be surprised how many sites simply block all of Europe rather than comply) and it's a wakeup call. There is a real chance of the bad guys winning here.

Re: WhatsApp lead and other tech experts fire back at Apple’s Child Safety plan

#363

Post by studentrob »

thw0rted wrote: post #362
studentrob wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, what's your point? You want this legislation to pass? You seem intent on delivering news of a future dystopia. I don't think any of these scanned systems or policies will survive in the long run. They're inherently insecure and won't lead to growth.

Your post I originally replied to said > They've tried to do this for decades and have failed.... Let's see how voters like it. My "point" is that I thought the same way you did -- look what a mess Clipper Chip was, they always want backdoors but surely a voice of reason will show up, etc -- but something has changed. Couple the vote in the EU with the way the major tech companies reacted to GDPR (you'd be surprised…

My opinion here is that such policies are unenforceable and will therefore blow up in the faces of whoever implements them. Whoever does not will have the people's backing and will pave the way to the future. Of course, none of us can see the future, so we'll just have to wait and see. If I lived in the EU I would make my voice heard about that legislation.

Re: WhatsApp lead and other tech experts fire back at Apple’s Child Safety plan

#364

Post by thw0rted »

studentrob wrote: post #363
thw0rted wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your post I originally replied to said > They've tried to do this for decades and have failed.... Let's see how voters like it. My "point" is that I thought the same way you did -- look what a mess Clipper Chip was, they always want backdoors but surely a voice of reason will show up, etc -- but something has changed. Couple the vote in the EU with the way the major tech companies reacted to GDPR (you'd be surprised…

My opinion here is that such policies are unenforceable and will therefore blow up in the faces of whoever implements them. Whoever does not will have the people's backing and will pave the way to the future. Of course, none of us can see the future, so we'll just have to wait and see. If I lived in the EU I would make my voice heard about that legislation.

Maybe I'm just too jaded but I don't think "making voices heard" matters -- in the link I posted upthread, the overwhelming majority of voters did not want the Chat Control measure to pass, but it did anyway, "for the children". (I can't even do that -- I'm an American living over here, I have no say in politics but am subject to a lot of their rules.)

Maybe we'll get lucky and the next vote will fail, or maybe if it passes there will be providers that refuse to comply. I think if it happens, it's far more likely that most will cave, and a few will just pull the plug and stop offering service.

Re: WhatsApp lead and other tech experts fire back at Apple’s Child Safety plan

#365

Post by studentrob »

thw0rted wrote: post #364
studentrob wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My opinion here is that such policies are unenforceable and will therefore blow up in the faces of whoever implements them. Whoever does not will have the people's backing and will pave the way to the future. Of course, none of us can see the future, so we'll just have to wait and see. If I lived in the EU I would make my voice heard about that legislation.

Maybe I'm just too jaded but I don't think "making voices heard" matters -- in the link I posted upthread, the overwhelming majority of voters did not want the Chat Control measure to pass, but it did anyway, "for the children". (I can't even do that -- I'm an American living over here, I have no say in politics but am subject to a lot of their rules.) Maybe we'll get lucky and the next vote will fail, or maybe if it…

> I don't think "making voices heard" matters

Of course it matters. Politicians must listen to voters on topics of import or they're out. If you're arguing against democracy and for some imagined alternative, then I can't help you because that's a worse outcome.

It's true some policies do pass that a lot of people don't want. It's up to the voters to make an issue of that in the next election cycle. As an American living in the EU you can certainly use your voice. That may be as consequential as your vote if you are convincing. Since I do not live there I don't engage in those politics, despite the connectedness of the world. There's enough to deal with on our home turf.

Re: WhatsApp lead and other tech experts fire back at Apple’s Child Safety plan

#366

Post by ryanlol »

zepto wrote: post #360
ryanlol wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t matter, it’s still opt-out if you were using iCloud Photo Library before these features were announced. It’s really ridiculous to try to call this “opt-in”.

I was using iCloud Photo Library before this was announced. None of my photos have been scanned, nor ever will be unless I choose for them to be. I don’t have to do anything to achieve this. They won’t scan anything unless I decide to go ahead. That is the very meaning of opt-in. Opt-out typically means that someone will go ahead with something unless you decline. This is not that. I do agree that if I don’t want on…

> Opt-out typically means that someone will go ahead with something unless you decline. This is not that

That’s exactly what this is. If you use iCloud Photos your pictures will be scanned unless you explicitly disable iCloud Photos.

How is that not opt-out? You never get asked if you’d like to opt-in to have your images scanned for CSAM.

Re: WhatsApp lead and other tech experts fire back at Apple’s Child Safety plan

#367

Post by thw0rted »

studentrob wrote: post #365
thw0rted wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm just too jaded but I don't think "making voices heard" matters -- in the link I posted upthread, the overwhelming majority of voters did not want the Chat Control measure to pass, but it did anyway, "for the children". (I can't even do that -- I'm an American living over here, I have no say in politics but am subject to a lot of their rules.) Maybe we'll get lucky and the next vote will fail, or maybe if it…

> I don't think "making voices heard" matters Of course it matters. Politicians must listen to voters on topics of import or they're out. If you're arguing against democracy and for some imagined alternative, then I can't help you because that's a worse outcome. It's true some policies do pass that a lot of people don't want. It's up to the voters to make an issue of that in the next election cycle. As an American li…

I'm not arguing against democracy: it's the worst system except all the other ones. I didn't think much of Brexit, I think they really shafted themselves, but at the same time I get the strong impression that EU governance is hopelessly broken.

I don't have to bring a solution to notice that the system we have is not working. (That's not to say I don't wish I had one, I just don't.)

Re: WhatsApp lead and other tech experts fire back at Apple’s Child Safety plan

#368

Post by sumeno »

romwell wrote: post #361
sumeno wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SWAT team is knocking on your door after you've uploaded multiple instances of child porn to iCloud and those instances have been verified to actually be child porn by a human. That sounds fine to me.

>The SWAT team is knocking on your door after you've uploaded multiple instances of child porn ...or whatever gets sneaked into a database that nobody can take a look at, and whose maintainers have zero obligations to you . >and those instances have been verified to actually be child porn by a human. Yeah, SWAT teams doing their homework before shooting people up is precisely why SWATting is a completely innocent thi…

The algorithm doesn't report to the SWAT team. It reports to Apple who verifies it.

Re: WhatsApp lead and other tech experts fire back at Apple’s Child Safety plan

#369

Post by neilv »

neilv wrote: post #323
cheald wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I run CalyxOS on a refurbished Pixel device. Works great, very privacy-respecting out of the box. Good at being a device that you actually own.

Thanks, I was looking at CalyxOS, and plan to try that "next weekend".

In case anyone reads this thread later.. So far, CalyxOS is working out well. The hardest parts were buying a used device for it (uncertainty of getting a version with an unlockable bootloader, and having to avoid all the OLED display problems).

Re: WhatsApp lead and other tech experts fire back at Apple’s Child Safety plan

#370

Post by cheald »

neilv wrote: post #369
neilv wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, I was looking at CalyxOS, and plan to try that "next weekend".

In case anyone reads this thread later.. So far, CalyxOS is working out well. The hardest parts were buying a used device for it (uncertainty of getting a version with an unlockable bootloader, and having to avoid all the OLED display problems).

Chiming in with my own experience, as well. The two wrinkles I've encountered:

* SafetyNet doesn't work, as expected, which means no Google Pay. Nothing else I use has been impeded, though. * Chromecasting doesn't seem to be implemented in MicroG, so no casting content

Other than that, it's been solid.

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