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American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

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Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#361

Post by kube-system »

civilized wrote: post #300
handrous wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bizarre. Where I am math and English remain king and queen of getting-on-the-schedule. Being "tested subjects" from very early grades, is the main reason. They've all but eliminated recess in elementary, and have reduced hours for things like art & music, to make sure they have plenty of time for them, since school prestige and funding rely heavily on testing well just in those two subjects.

Maybe there's good reason for that? Reading and math are fundamental for a much broader range of occupations than art and music.

Was occupational training ever the primary goal of public schooling -- even back in the days when most people went directly to the workforce afterwards?

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#362

Post by avidphantasm »

horsawlarway wrote: post #343
udev wrote: post #326

Lots of comments asking what is "Soviet/Russian Math" actually like, and how is it different. I was lucky to get an education in three systems (Soviet Math, Romanian Math School (influenced by both French and Soviet Math school), and finally in a world top 40 university in North America. I would summarize the Soviet/Russian Math/Physics approach like this: - understanding of the mechanism/intuition behind the equatio…

As an american who went through US-based curriculum in the 90s, this sounds FUCKING WONDERFUL . Basically - it seems like the approach above treats math as a conceptual playground, where you should develop intuition and understanding. Instead we seem to be going down the rote memorization route for most of our classes, where the goal was to apply an equation to some numbers and get the right answer, with little to no…

I have always liked math, but have never been great or very good at it. I graduated from a US public school gifted program, and a top 30 US university. The biggest problem I always had with math education is they didn’t teach the “why” nearly enough. I was lousy at memorizing formulas/methods (esp. in calculus), so I often found myself dead in the water during exams.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#363

Post by dougSF70 »

donny2018 wrote: post #318
dougSF70 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow American Math doesn't have the same connotations. I am witnessing public schools take math out of the curriculum at elementary, middle and high schools. It is a wasted opportunity for young people to learn the beauty of math.

> I am witnessing public schools take math out of the curriculum at elementary, middle and high schools. Is that for real? If true, this is ridiculous. Do American authorities want to introduce some kind of education for plebs? How is such low standard for basic education is even acceptable in the modern world? It’s not only about “beauty of math” but at least basic math is required to help develop some specific cogn…

Yes it's TRUE. In SF the schools district removed Algebra from the middle school curriculum. You should read The Dictators Handbook, it details why dismantling education piece by piece is a great way to stay in power. You'd expect it in a dictatorship but not in SF.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#364

Post by crispyambulance »

Growing up in the US we were fed a "mythology" about Russian and Chinese schooling that claimed it was all rote memorization without actual understanding. It's been clear for a long time that this was nothing more a form of American exceptionalist propaganda. I wonder if it was ever true? I suspect not.

The tragic thing is it now appears that US STEM education (at least for non-elite schools) is closer to the rote-memorization/calculator-bot curriculums than every other school system.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#365

Post by starkd »

caffeine wrote: post #325
StellarTabi wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, why I have been hearing non-stop astro-turfing about "CRT in schools" in the last 6 months and I've never heard once about math being taken out? This sounds really serious, is there more I can read about Math being removed from public schools?

These are the same thing. The policy is to remove educational disparity. Naturally force flows along the path of least resistance - rather than raising everyone up, which is hard, we are simply removing anything difficult from the curriculum, which is much easier (at the expense of actually educating anyone, a goal that nobody cares about much any more). The easiest way to make equality is to multiply both sides by z…

Many in teachers' unions don't want to be rated on how badly public schools are doing. It's not all the fault of teachers, granted, but incentives of the union here is not always aligned with the students. Many don't want to hear it, but it needs to be said as a factor.

There are a lot of these initiatives - like Russian math - popping up serving as test cases for how to teach subjects. I think online programs are injecting some badly needed new energy.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#366

Post by systemvoltage »

udev wrote: post #326

Lots of comments asking what is "Soviet/Russian Math" actually like, and how is it different. I was lucky to get an education in three systems (Soviet Math, Romanian Math School (influenced by both French and Soviet Math school), and finally in a world top 40 university in North America. I would summarize the Soviet/Russian Math/Physics approach like this: - understanding of the mechanism/intuition behind the equatio…

Meanwhile in California: https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11...

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#367

Post by jnsie »

horsawlarway wrote: post #343
udev wrote: post #326

Lots of comments asking what is "Soviet/Russian Math" actually like, and how is it different. I was lucky to get an education in three systems (Soviet Math, Romanian Math School (influenced by both French and Soviet Math school), and finally in a world top 40 university in North America. I would summarize the Soviet/Russian Math/Physics approach like this: - understanding of the mechanism/intuition behind the equatio…

As an american who went through US-based curriculum in the 90s, this sounds FUCKING WONDERFUL . Basically - it seems like the approach above treats math as a conceptual playground, where you should develop intuition and understanding. Instead we seem to be going down the rote memorization route for most of our classes, where the goal was to apply an equation to some numbers and get the right answer, with little to no…

Same in Ireland :-(

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#368

Post by starkd »

handrous wrote: post #279
dougSF70 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow American Math doesn't have the same connotations. I am witnessing public schools take math out of the curriculum at elementary, middle and high schools. It is a wasted opportunity for young people to learn the beauty of math.

Bizarre. Where I am math and English remain king and queen of getting-on-the-schedule. Being "tested subjects" from very early grades, is the main reason. They've all but eliminated recess in elementary, and have reduced hours for things like art & music, to make sure they have plenty of time for them, since school prestige and funding rely heavily on testing well just in those two subjects.

That's a shame. Recess and play offer some of the best learning experiences. Our schools are beginning to resemble prisons. Heads down, sit up straight, stare at computer all day.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#369

Post by HPsquared »

kube-system wrote: post #361
civilized wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe there's good reason for that? Reading and math are fundamental for a much broader range of occupations than art and music.

Was occupational training ever the primary goal of public schooling -- even back in the days when most people went directly to the workforce afterwards?

That, obedience training, and cultural induction.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#370

Post by telotortium »

kube-system wrote: post #361
civilized wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe there's good reason for that? Reading and math are fundamental for a much broader range of occupations than art and music.

Was occupational training ever the primary goal of public schooling -- even back in the days when most people went directly to the workforce afterwards?

You'll have to decide what the "primary" goal is, but there was certainly the sense in the past that a U.S. high school graduate would be suitable for most jobs, either blue collar (shop class used to be quite popular), white collar (academic classes, particularly English), or indeed housewife (home economy). No matter what, though, a mastery of the 3 Rs (reading, writing, and arithmetic) was considered essential to all of these (you have to know arithmetic to balance your checkbook, do taxes, measure for construction, etc.). High school wasn't necessarily a specialized occupational school, but there was an expectation you would be learning useful skills for your future.
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