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One Bad Apple

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Re: One Bad Apple

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the single biggest user of UKs camera system originally intended for serious crimes are housing councils checking to see who didn't clean up after their dog. Which camera system? Do you have a citation for that?

That's absolute nonsense but it's one of those things where I'd be interested to try and unpick the provenance of how someone could believe something so ridiculous.

You guys are so dismissive. How dare you look down on some random person without even taking 10 seconds to look it up.

https://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/news/17327294.cctv-c...

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-22792013

Anecdotally my Mum works for Coventry City Council (though she is in events planning) but has noted complaints from colleagues about “busy work” from “fussy old people who keep asking for camera footage” — though Coventry often declines.

Information on those cameras: https://www.coventry.gov.uk/cctv

Re: One Bad Apple

#362
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The laws regarding CSAM/CSA are not the problem, they are fine. The problem is that we are expected to give up our rights in the vague notion of 'protecting children' while the same authorities actively ignore ongoing CSA. The Sophie Long case is an excellent example where the police has no interest in investigating allegations of CSA. Why is it that resources are spent policing CSAM but not CSA? It is because it is…

I agree that our current legal and law enforcement system isn't up to speed with 21st century internet. And it has to be updated, because this kind of makes the internet a de-facto law less space, covering everything from stalking, harassment over fraud to contraband trafficking and CSAM. I don't think full scale surveillance is the way to go in free, democratic societies. It is the easiest one, so. Even more if surv…

All of the 'bad things' you mention are already very illegal. Changing the laws in this case will only lead to tyranny. I cannot emphasize this enough, you cannot fix societal ills by simply making bad things illegal. Right to repair is of course crucial to free society.

Re: One Bad Apple

#363

NCMEC has essentially shows that they have zero regard for privacy and called all privacy activists "screeching voices of the minority". At the same time, they're at the center point of a highly opaque, entrenched (often legally mandated) censorhip infrastructure that can and will get accounts shut down irrecoverably and possibly people's homes raided, on questionable data: In one of the previous discussions, I've se…

Scary to admit this, but whatever. In my younger years, which coincidentally were also the younger years of the internet, I used to come across... let's say...bad things all the time.

Being a decent enough human, I made many reports to NCMEC. Human verified(me) reports.

Never once did I hear back. Not even some weird auto-reply. Needless to say, I have zero faith in that agency. Fitting they'd get others to do the work.

Re: One Bad Apple

#364
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the part that also caught my eye. Surely Apple's lawyers have also reviewed the same law, and if it's that clearly defined, how did they justify/explain their approach?

Because Apple (its employees) aren't actually viewing the images, nor transmitting them. They mention somewhere that it's a low res proxy of the image, or something similar.

But wouldn't a low res image of CP be still classified as CP ? I guess the manual verification will ve done as a joint venture by apple and the authorities

Re: One Bad Apple

#365
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before: you would upload images to iCloud Photos. Apple can access your images in iCloud Photos, but it does not. Now: You upload images to iCloud Photos. When doing so, your device also uploads a separate safety voucher for the image. If there are enough vouchers for CSAM matched images in your library, Apple gains the ability to access the data in the vouchers for images matching CSAM. One of the data elements in t…

> access the data in the vouchers for images matching CSAM. One of the data elements in the voucher is an “image derivative” (probably a thumbnail) So the author of the article is technically correct: Apple intentionally uploads CP to their servers for manual review which is explicitly forbidden by law. He even describes the issue with thumbnails

It is exceedingly unlikely that a system developed with NCMEC’s support and a Fortune 5 legal team somehow fails to comply with the most obviously relevant laws.

Re: One Bad Apple

#366
post #61
post #18

There are a lot of articles about Apples hadh algorithm and for me they are mostly irrelevant to the main problem. The main problem is that Apple has backdoored my device. More types of bad images or other files will be scanned since now apple does not have plausible deniablity to defend any of ghe government’x requests. In the future a false? positive that happened? to be of a political file that crept in the list c…

They could have done all that without telling you. And as long as the traffic was combined with normal traffic no one would ever notice (and in this case it would end up mixed with normal traffic since it only applies to images being uploaded to iCloud, so communication with Apples servers would be expected). What it looks like to me is that Apple is planning on releasing end-to-end encryption for iCloud. But they kn…

They might be able to do it without anyone ever knowing, but at a business level they can’t they do it better with everyone knowing and children safety as an excuse?

Re: One Bad Apple

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was never mentioned by Apple. If that was their intention then I suspect they would have mentioned it alongside this announcement to provide a justification and quell the (justified) outrage. I also question the value of e2e there’s an arbitrary scanner that can send back the unencrypted files if it finds a match. If apple’s servers controls the db with “hashes” to match then is it all that different from apple’…

They don’t send unencrypted full-res files, they send low res “visual representation” and can only decode if they get > x “hits”. Assuming it works as described I do think it’s better than just having full keys as they do now. And why else would they go to all this trouble? They can scan images now on their servers if that’s what they want.

[deleted]

Re: One Bad Apple

#368
post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> About this time, someone usually mocks "it's always about the kids, think about the kids." To those critics: They have not seen the scope of this problem or the long term impact. The problem is people use this perfectly legitimate problem to justify anything. They think it's okay to surveil the entire world because children are suffering. There are no limits they won't exceed, no lines they won't cross in the name…

Yeah, and none of these assholes (pardon the language) is willing to spend a penny to provide for millions of children suffering of poverty: free education, food, health, parental support. Nothing, zero, zilch. And these millions are suffering right now, this second, with life-long physical and psychological traumas that will perpetuate this poverty spiral forever.

Thank you! This is a really important observation about anything controversial „child“ related. Be it abortion or abuse you can tell what people‘s real priorities are by looking at how much they are willing to spend on the welfare of kids outside their immediate point of concern.

All of these types of problems are likely better solved in some other ways. Why not have general mental health coaching in schools freely available to increase the chance of early detection of abusive behaviors? Why not improve the financial situation of parents so that the child is not perceived to be another burden in a brutal life? Why not offer low-friction free mental health coaching to all individuals?

The way the world is organized now is ABSURD to the highest degrees! We pretend to care about a thing but only look at issues narrowly without considering the big picture.

In the end, politics and the way power is distributed is broken. There are too many entrenched interests looking out for their narrow self-interest. There seems to be not enough vision to unite enough power for substantial change. Even the SDGs don‘t seem to inspire the developed nations as something to mobilize for. We need the fervor of war efforts for positive change.

Doing the right thing and doing things right needs to become the very essence of what we as individuals stand for. Not consuming goods or furthering the idealogical agenda of a select few. Each and every one of us should look into themselves and look into the world and work to build a monument of this collective existence. We were here. Let us explain to all following us how we tried our best to do the right things in the right way and where we fell short of our ambitions and hope that others might improve upon our work.

Sorry, I think this turned into a rant but it comes from the heart.

Re: One Bad Apple

#369
post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's absolute nonsense but it's one of those things where I'd be interested to try and unpick the provenance of how someone could believe something so ridiculous.

You guys are so dismissive. How dare you look down on some random person without even taking 10 seconds to look it up. https://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/news/17327294.cctv-c... https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-22792013 Anecdotally my Mum works for Coventry City Council (though she is in events planning) but has noted complaints from colleagues about “busy work” from “fussy old people who keep asking…

One or two news reports of local councils maybe using CCTV, doesn’t back up your claim.

The UK doesn’t have a super camera system used for minor crimes like you insinuate.

The high camera counts in the UK come from including private CCTV cameras in the data which privately owned and are not linked together, hence the government is not using a network of cameras to monitor dog poo clean up as you claim.

Re: One Bad Apple

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was never mentioned by Apple. If that was their intention then I suspect they would have mentioned it alongside this announcement to provide a justification and quell the (justified) outrage. I also question the value of e2e there’s an arbitrary scanner that can send back the unencrypted files if it finds a match. If apple’s servers controls the db with “hashes” to match then is it all that different from apple’…

> If that was their intention then I suspect they would have mentioned it alongside this announcement to provide a justification and quell the (justified) outrage. It’s August. New iPhones and iOS / macOS are released in September. If they want to introduce E2E encryption for photos and need this in place to do it, then it makes sense to announce this ahead of time and get the backlash out of the way so that they can…

Software features are announced at WWDC, which happens early summer and already happened this year. It's only the hardware that gets announced (and the software released) in September.
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