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Building a vision of life without work (2015)

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Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#361

Post by cowvin »

paulcole wrote: post #143
mgh2 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We were built to work, to have purpose. Having meaningful work is key - this is what the FIRE movement misunderstood. By meaningful, I mean to someone other your yourself or your extended self (family). Our purpose is to serve others, not ourselves.

I definitely wasn't built to have a purpose. I took a 3-year early retirement and didn't do anything for anyone but myself and loved every minute of it. I watched TV, went to the movies, read books, went to the gym, rode my bicycle, and that was it. Had no need for anything else. If I could do that without having a job, I'd happily do it for the rest of my life with no problems.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'd be happy doing that for quite some time. I guess it might get old after a while, though, which is why I would probably do a semi-retirement bit for a while.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#362

Post by neomindryan »

svachalek wrote: post #313
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you find anything let me know. Of course here in the US the nigh-insurmountable problem with part time work is that you won't get health coverage at an affordable rate.

Yes, it's actually a bit better since "Obamacare" but still pretty ridiculous. Another is simply finding an employer who agrees to a part-time engineer. I'm typically on 3-6 major projects at any given time and it seems pretty obvious that simply dropping to 2-3 and working half the time would be a pretty easy adjustment to both sides -- but most management considers this unthinkable for some reason.

I couldn't resist chiming in here: we're doing this at Neomind Labs. We don't act as steward for front-end frameworks yet, but we're considering supporting React (I saw that you're a front-end developer).

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#363

Post by kerkeslager »

war1025 wrote: post #310
kerkeslager wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course people can choose not having spouse or kids. What do you mean there is zero alternative? You're doing that thing where you claim there's freedom of choice because you're ignoring the punishment inflicted on one choice. The choice not to commit to a long-term relationship has had severe financial implications for centuries, especially if you are female. Until the invention of effective birth control, the c…

> the choice to not have children meant giving up much of heterosexual sex. A bit personal maybe, but my wife has never been on birth control, we don't use protection, and have never had an "oops" baby. We had kids when we wanted kids, and haven't had kids when we didn't want kids. It's really just... not that hard...

That's great for you, but as a societal discussion, that's about as useful as a story of how someone prayed and their mom's cancer went away.

You're taking a risk, in the context of a committed relationship where you've already had kids (so the stakes are lower than for a lot of people). So far that risk has worked out for you. That doesn't mean that is the right risk for everyone. It also doesn't mean that what you're doing is reliable for everyone. And it certainly doesn't mean that you're somehow more intelligent or competent than the people for whom similar methods of family planning have failed.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#364

Post by war1025 »

kerkeslager wrote: post #363
war1025 wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the choice to not have children meant giving up much of heterosexual sex. A bit personal maybe, but my wife has never been on birth control, we don't use protection, and have never had an "oops" baby. We had kids when we wanted kids, and haven't had kids when we didn't want kids. It's really just... not that hard...

That's great for you, but as a societal discussion, that's about as useful as a story of how someone prayed and their mom's cancer went away. You're taking a risk, in the context of a committed relationship where you've already had kids (so the stakes are lower than for a lot of people). So far that risk has worked out for you. That doesn't mean that is the right risk for everyone. It also doesn't mean that what you'…

> it certainly doesn't mean that you're somehow more intelligent or competent than the people for whom similar methods of family planning have failed.

I personally think it is a sign of modern hubris to assume that effective family planning didn't exist prior to 1960s and the advent of birth control.

All forms of family planning can fail. I don't think that's contentious.

Personally, the bigger issue I see among my peers is inability to conceive at all. They squandered their fertile years and are now going to enormous expense to start a family.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#365

Post by kerkeslager »

temp8964 wrote: post #165
kerkeslager wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course people can choose not having spouse or kids. What do you mean there is zero alternative? You're doing that thing where you claim there's freedom of choice because you're ignoring the punishment inflicted on one choice. The choice not to commit to a long-term relationship has had severe financial implications for centuries, especially if you are female. Until the invention of effective birth control, the c…

The whole point is that even with material support, people still need to live with spouse and kids, and having a regular work (not necessarily work for someone else), to have a happy life. Yes, modern technology and economy makes it easier for you to live alone but it does not change the basic human needs. Eventually you will need a spouse (same or opposite sex), not just for the money, not for the sex, but for the i…

> The whole point is that even with material support, people still need to live with spouse and kids, and having a regular work (not necessarily work for someone else), to have a happy life.

I understood that was your point. The problem is that your point simply isn't true, and you've provided absolutely no evidence of your belief beyond your patronizing "some people realize this earlier than others".

I do think that intimacy is a necessary part of happiness for most people, but there are many ways to find intimacy besides a spouse. As for kids: people who don't ever want kids and end up happy are common enough that I'd consider it common knowledge. There are all sorts of families out there, and many of them don't involve marriages or children.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#366

Post by kerkeslager »

adwn wrote: post #186
kerkeslager wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...in which you cherry-pick one sentence from my post, ignoring the sentence before it. That's exactly why I said, "at least not any more unrealistic than any more traditional life plans". Working a job doesn't fix either of these problems. At least in the US, many people who go bankrupt due to medical issues have health insurance , usually provided by their job. These problems are compounded if your plan was to work…

> That's exactly why I said, "at least not any more unrealistic than any more traditional life plans". And you're still wrong. Retiring early renders your financial situation much more fragile and susceptible to disruptive events. Sure, you can go bankrupt due to divorce or illness even when employed, but it's much more probable when you don't have an income stream and when your financial planning depends on not brea…

> Sure, you can go bankrupt due to divorce or illness even when employed, but it's much more probable when you don't have an income stream and when your financial planning depends on not breaking up or not getting ill.

This is exactly missing my point:

Just because you retire early, doesn't mean your financial planning depends on you not breaking up or not getting ill.

Just because you work out the rest of your existence, doesn't mean you've successfully accounted for breakups or illness.

> Retiring early renders your financial situation much more fragile and susceptible to disruptive events.

Why is that, exactly?

> You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about my "worldview" and about how I'm "gloating" over the author's misfortune.

What assumptions? Am I correct in saying that you believe "Retiring early renders your financial situation much more fragile and susceptible to disruptive events" is part of your worldview, and that you're taking the author's failure as a confirmation of that worldview?

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#367

Post by slumpt_ »

cortesoft wrote: post #360
kevinwang wrote: post #5

This person also posted an amazing, unvarnished update recently (about 5-6 years later): https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-u...

Man I really dislike the way he comes across. He acts like anyone who doesn't want his lifestyle is just "keeping up with the joneses" and "peacocking" and is just trying to impress other people, whereas he is enlightened and doesn't need that external validation. That is so smug and self-important. He clearly has social needs, he just feels them differently. And also, not everyone who wants to work and have wealth i…

Yep. My takeaway is he is probably a bit of a narcissist / stuck in his own head. Unable to process the real lived perspectives of others.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#368

Post by kerkeslager »

war1025 wrote: post #364
kerkeslager wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's great for you, but as a societal discussion, that's about as useful as a story of how someone prayed and their mom's cancer went away. You're taking a risk, in the context of a committed relationship where you've already had kids (so the stakes are lower than for a lot of people). So far that risk has worked out for you. That doesn't mean that is the right risk for everyone. It also doesn't mean that what you'…

> it certainly doesn't mean that you're somehow more intelligent or competent than the people for whom similar methods of family planning have failed. I personally think it is a sign of modern hubris to assume that effective family planning didn't exist prior to 1960s and the advent of birth control. All forms of family planning can fail. I don't think that's contentious. Personally, the bigger issue I see among my p…

> I personally think it is a sign of modern hubris to assume that effective family planning didn't exist prior to 1960s and the advent of birth control.

Effective toward what end?

Having kids when and only when you want them? Sure. "Only have sex when you want a kid" has always been an option.

Having kids when and only when you want them, and fulfilling your biological urges? Not so much.

I'm glad for you that your family planning worked for you and fulfilled your needs, but if you're going to extrapolate your experience to literally all humans throughout history, you aren't really in a position to be talking about other people's hubris.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#369

Post by mgh2 »

mgh2 wrote: post #110
zoba wrote: post #67

I was 2nd employee at a unicorn startup and have been on a work-hiatus for almost a year. Now, I live amongst Amish people in the country. My biggest insight has been a mindset change. Previously my underlying approach to life looked like: "I will do X which will enable me to do Y so that I can finally do Z." I now approach my days with "What will make me happy?" This is an experiment I'm performing. A structured lif…

We were built to work, to have purpose. Having meaningful work is key - this is what the FIRE movement misunderstood. By meaningful, I mean to someone other your yourself or your extended self (family). Our purpose is to serve others, not ourselves.

It seems a lot of people downvoting and replying to this thread did not read the entire article - as if I offended a cult. The author reaches a similar conclusion.

The "freedom" and "F the man" movements (crypto, 4HWW, FIRE, MLM, Kiyosaki, etc.) all seem to share a similar narrative: Spend your most productive years in retirement while feeding off from other's labor - a somehow irresponsible worldview.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#370

Post by qntty »

dheera wrote: post #278
qntty wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 6k limit is for a Roth IRA, which is only one kind of IRA.

Seems to apply to both: > The 2021 limit for contributions to Roth and traditional IRAs is $6,000 https://www.investopedia.com/roth-and-traditional-ira-contri...

The limit for a 401k is higher, which is typically rolled into a traditional IRA.
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