‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect • Hacker News Board

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#361

Post by bootlooped » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 7:07 PM UTC

SavantIdiot wrote: post #351

okareaman wrote: post #161

I was extremely lucky to WFH during the first 12 years of my software career. When I finally got a job in an office I was shocked at how awful it was. The 2 hours commuting every workday, the flickering fluorescent lights, the noise of coworkers, the smell of burnt coffee or popcorn, the boss that drops by to see how you're doing and causes you to lose a hour of concentration so I might as browse the web until quitti…

Cube farms of the 80's/90's were the worst. Cube etiquette was in its infancy. Loud talkers, ice chewers, farters, snifflers, oversharers, too much A/C, too little A/C, awful ergonomics, 6'x4' compressed cubicles, shared cubicles. Then there was the crappy cafeteria food, enormous parking lots with 15 minute walks to your car if you showed up after 8am, ... oy.

But didn't they make the office even worse by going from cubicle to open office? Often less space per person, less privacy, noise travels further, visual distractions, etc...

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#362

Post by lmilcin » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 7:10 PM UTC

throwawaynumber wrote: post #252

dcolkitt wrote: post #15

I’m honestly perplexed what the FANGs are even thinking in being so aggressive about pushing an end to WFH. Sure it could all work out fine for them. Maybe employees will grumble for a bit, then settle back into office life. But maybe it wont’t . There’s a very real possibility that you lose a non-negligible percent of your staff (disproportionately the most talented who have other options), handicap your ability to…

Like most of hacker news, I think you vastly underestimate really how replaceable smart and skilled people really are. There are literally millions of them, most with far lower pay and conditions than offered by FANGS.

You are forgetting how expensive it is to replace smart and skilled people.

There sure are millions of them, sure, but not necessarily millions of them available when you post your opening. I know because I am searching for senior Java devs for a stable, global, wealthy corporation and yet it takes months to fill positions.

Then to the expense of searching you need to add the expense of the guy having to spend at least a year on the job to really become productive, learn the system, the organization, learn the problem to be able to effectively design quality solutions, etc.

If this guy leaves in 2 years on average you have spent most of the time basically searching for him and waiting for him to warm up.

Smart and skilled people spend a bunch of time learning your problems, figuring out solutions, only to take all that knowledge and experience with them to be replaced for a green guy who will have to start mostly from scratch.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#363

Post by notatoad » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 7:12 PM UTC

dcolkitt wrote: post #15

I’m honestly perplexed what the FANGs are even thinking in being so aggressive about pushing an end to WFH. Sure it could all work out fine for them. Maybe employees will grumble for a bit, then settle back into office life. But maybe it wont’t . There’s a very real possibility that you lose a non-negligible percent of your staff (disproportionately the most talented who have other options), handicap your ability to…

disclaimer that this is completely anecdotal, but what i've heard from a few people in fortune-500 oil&gas companies is that 30-40% attrition is an acceptable side-effect of returning to offices, because productivity has been down by even more than that during WFH.

the push to get people back in the offices is because people aren't working from home. there's no point retaining your staff if they aren't actually getting anything done. maybe it's different for software engineers at FAANG companies, but keep in mind that even if software engineers are productive, those companies employ thousands of people in sales, marketing, HR, accounting, and other office jobs. and pushing people back to the office in one department while letting another department continue WFH isn't going to play well.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#364

Post by majormajor » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 7:14 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #42

In my experience at least talking to some younger people there is a clear dichotomy: despite all the talk about Gen Z being "digital natives", people new in their career are much hungrier to get back into the office because they don't yet have good career networks built up and they're eager for mentorship. It is older, or at least more established workers who are less keen on that. I don't think FAANGs will have any…

My take on HN is that there's a very vocal and fervent anti-office crowd here that cares more strongly about it so will dominate conversations about it, and that the "typical line-level engineer" employee will roll their eyes, not engage, and just continue waiting until they can get back to normal.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#365

Post by tayo42 » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 7:16 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #42

In my experience at least talking to some younger people there is a clear dichotomy: despite all the talk about Gen Z being "digital natives", people new in their career are much hungrier to get back into the office because they don't yet have good career networks built up and they're eager for mentorship. It is older, or at least more established workers who are less keen on that. I don't think FAANGs will have any…

Who is doing the mentoring then if only early career people are in the office?

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#366

Post by RHSeeger » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 7:17 PM UTC

yupper32 wrote: post #325

RHSeeger wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not how I read it. Rather, I read it as the _ability_ to work from home is _obviously_ superior. As some people do better remotely and some do better in the office, requiring that everyone come into the office is an inferior choice. Admittedly, even that isn't unambiguously true (and neither would be the reverse).

> requiring that everyone come into the office is an inferior choice For many, going into the office is their preference because everyone is required to go into the office. For a while I may be the only person going into the office on my team, which defeats the whole point. I want to be in the office because I work better when my team is around in person.

> I want to be in the office because I work better when my team is around in person.

That's pretty much why I said that allowing remote work isn't unambiguously the best choice. There's negatives to every arrangement, and your scenario is one of the negatives to allowing remote work. Personally, I don't think it's enough of negative to counteract the positives, but it's enough that it's worth having the discussion.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#367

Post by nafix » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 7:18 PM UTC

tgragnato wrote: post #299

ItsMonkk wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I experienced all of these to a much better degree during college. Are you sure you don't just want to live in a city that provides plenty of shared spaces? Relying on your employer for these items seems unwise.

Dating at work is especially a bad idea. Things could be perfect, but (with high probability) a relationship will abruptly end and managing every social aspect can be difficult.

Maybe for you it is. I know tons of people who do this with 0 issue at multiple places I've worked.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#368

Post by mdorazio » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 7:20 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #31

mdorazio wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only speak from personal experience, but fwiw I'm currently consulting with 2 non-tech Fortune 500 companies. Both have implemented "hybrid" return to office policies where employees have to live within 100 miles of the office and be able to come in 1 day a week or 1 day a month depending on team. I've talked with executives in charge of large teams at both companies about this issue and so far it looks like th…

10% of people leaving during a time when hiring has gotten significantly harder sounds like a serious problem for any company.

It’s really not. Normal attrition rate is probably more than that and a good portion of the people leaving over wfh policies probably would have left for other reasons anyway. So the added resignations over wfh aren’t a huge burden yet. It will become a big problem if hiring continues to be very difficult, but we won’t know if that trend holds for some time.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#369

Post by burlesona » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #182

dahfizz wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People just have different preferences. I'm always surprised how HN treats WFH as _obviously_ superior and desirable in every way, to the point where OP is claiming these mega corps may collapse if they ask their employees to come into the office.

There's a bias towards tech company and startups here. Those are concentrated in places like the Bay Area, NYC Metro, Boston Metro, Atlanta Metro, DC Metro, etc. Those places are all commuting hellscapes, so there's almost no scenario where you wouldn't do WFH if you could. My dad did the Queens-Manhattan bus/subway/express subway/walk treadmill for most of his career -- not fun. I live in a small city with a 6 minut…

The commute thing depends on where exactly you live and work. I worked in SF for years, but lived in the city and biked to work. It was a nice commute, a great office, and I loved our neighborhood.

These kinds of things are just really hard to generalize.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#370

Post by pawelduda » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 7:22 PM UTC

awsthro00945 wrote: post #214

ItsMonkk wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I experienced all of these to a much better degree during college. Are you sure you don't just want to live in a city that provides plenty of shared spaces? Relying on your employer for these items seems unwise.

> Relying on your employer for these items seems unwise. Why? Work is where you spend one third (or more) of your time during your adult life. Why the hell would I not want such a significant portion of my life to not also provide great benefits like opportunities to make friends, meet people, eat great food, and have fun? If you scoff at people who want to make their workplaces more welcoming and happier, no shit th…

The root of the problem you descibe are incentives for why workplaces exist. They exist so employees can go there and work. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as it's an explicit contract between employer and employees that both sides agree on.

Some employers will be very happy with blurring work/personal life boundaries: employees make friends (but the real quality of friendships will only surface after you've changed jobs, unless you plan to stick to a single job forever), eat great food (because maybe it's cheaper than simply paying the employees more) and have fun (enough to make impression of a laid-back place but not too much, because it would hurt company's performance).

It's because all these 'perks' are built on completely different goal. I used to think they're mandatory for me to feel satisfied with the job - looking back they now seem artificial.

That's why I personally love WFH - it let's me focus on the essence of working which to me is providing value for my client. For everything else, there's time outside of job.