Earlier quoted context omitted.
[flagged]
I didn’t realize I didn’t want myself to exist. I certainly didn’t realize I wanted to take all my own rights away.
I've edited my post to be a bit more neutral, would you like to respond again? Thanks.
Changes at Basecamp
361–370 of 853 posts
Re: Changes at Basecamp
#362Earlier quoted context omitted.
No doubt you would be offended and angry if your CEO instituted a policy of workplace secularism, that extended to no career progression if you were a churchgoer. Or if important people commented on how smelly you were, and everyone laughed about Mr Stinker and your funny food. Banks wouldn't lend you money for a house in the nice part of town, because they all knew you were a snollygoster and they didn't want your k…
And you'd be completely fine with being passed over for a job because there is a quota for pink people and you're not pink? One can object to bad solutions to a problem without denying the problem itself exists. It's exactly the stifling of these types of discussions to real problems that's the issue. Any suggestion of alternatives or pointing out problems with existing practices, and you get labeled a bigot.
You understand that white people are literally pink right?
And there is an effective white guy target at many workplaces: all but one. People choose other people like themselves.
The preposterous nature of your contention is that I would be passed over for being too white? Well, I would simply take one of the many other jobs my strategic class and race positioning allows me to take.
Re: Changes at Basecamp
#363Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why would you trust any employer’s HR department? Their job is to reduce the company’s liability, not help you with your problems.
> is our company discriminating, even unintentionally and do our LGBT and minority employees feel as safe and valued as our straight cis white employees This is an HR responsibility. You either trust them to avoid and eliminate discrimination or you don't.
> This is an HR responsibility.
No, HRs responsibility is to make sure that legal liability for unlawful discrimination does not get imposed on the company, consistent with other corporate goals.
Actually mitigating discrimination may sometimes be the mechanism for that. Helping management create a smokescreen around acts of discrimination and find pretexts to force out people likely to discredit that smokescreen are also sometimes ways HR does that.
Mistaking HR for your advocate rather than management’s is a dangerous mistake.
Re: Changes at Basecamp
#364Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You are comparing a government to a company. Indeed. Both can be run either a democratic or authoritarian fashion. "Ownership should mean absolute power" is a common belief (everywhere but particularly in the US where labor rights have never been strong), but is only one option, and more democratic forms are possible. > Peasants don't optionally sign contracts to belong to their nation. Thinking that employers "bel…
Sincere question - not meant to be inflammatory: Do you actually believe that most employees in the United States are coerced/forced to sign employment contracts, or are you simply playing devil's advocate?
Of course. For most people, if they don't work, they can't pay for food and shelter. They will then be coercively denied those things via property law enforcement.
"Do the bidding of an employer or be forcibly denied food and shelter" sure sounds like coercion to me.
Re: Changes at Basecamp
#365Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not defending this Basecamp's policy, but their goals as a company are vastly different than Atlassian's, so it's not really a fair comparison. Which do you think indexes higher on employee happiness?
Well one of the companies had to step in and ban certain areas of discussion among employees because it was so toxic it was effecting the company. So _they_ don't sound super happy.
haha agreed, sounds like things have changed
Re: Changes at Basecamp
#366There's a great blog entry I just read about this, "On Politics At Work". I think the author effectively hits on a real problem with a lot of these discussions. https://json.blog/2021/04/26/on-politics-at.html To some folks, "politics at work" means "endless battle royale political debates among coworkers in a Slack all day long; why wouldn't you be against that? But to others, "politics at work" means "are we paying…
I appreciate this. I think often we will frame things in a negating way, which doesn't end up working that well. I find "don't be political" as telling me to not touch something...I end up wanting to touch it. Whereas "keep channels civil and focused on work" tells me what the goal is and helps me recenter on that when I stray. Because I think the goal is not to be "not political" but really to "be civil and focused" as you mentioned.
Thank you!
Re: Changes at Basecamp
#367Earlier quoted context omitted.
In the past week I have spoken to coworkers about custom keyboards, sail racing, gym routines and upside of hiring a personal trainer, travel, 3D-printing, I can go on forever. I believe it is fundamentally possible to have an interesting and relaxing conversation with coworkers and not to touch political topics.
What you described is talking about personal interests and activities, and I agree that is the kind of stuff that is easy and fun to talk (and hear) about with others. I’m starting to think many people don’t have personal activities and interests and don’t know what to fill in small talk with other than what they saw on social media or the news.
Sports once filled that roll. It was acceptable and with enough tribalism to make it interesting. Sadly, they are not a safe conversation anymore.
Re: Changes at Basecamp
#368There's a great blog entry I just read about this, "On Politics At Work". I think the author effectively hits on a real problem with a lot of these discussions. https://json.blog/2021/04/26/on-politics-at.html To some folks, "politics at work" means "endless battle royale political debates among coworkers in a Slack all day long; why wouldn't you be against that? But to others, "politics at work" means "are we paying…
Sounds just as dumb as when Hacker News banned "politics" for a period, and people were discouraged from posting EFF blog posts and the like, because "politics" is an impressively vague word. Politics is life, it doesn't have to be toxic.
Eh, feels pretty different.
HN’s ban was intentionally a short term reboot/cooldown, during a particularly hot time - not a broad and indefinite ban.
Society is hard. I think it’s good to experiment, and when you’re explicit about a timeline, it seems like the stakes are reasonable.
Re: Changes at Basecamp
#369There's a great blog entry I just read about this, "On Politics At Work". I think the author effectively hits on a real problem with a lot of these discussions. https://json.blog/2021/04/26/on-politics-at.html To some folks, "politics at work" means "endless battle royale political debates among coworkers in a Slack all day long; why wouldn't you be against that? But to others, "politics at work" means "are we paying…
The issue I see here is that Jason Fried and DHH state that this decision lands solely with them. Giving Basecamp the benefit of the doubt is impossible until and unless they center marginalized voices and give them positions of power at Basecamp. Otherwise this decision is cowardice wrapped in some arbitrary policies.
Well, Basecamp is their company, isn’t it? If they don’t have the right to make those changes... who has?
Re: Changes at Basecamp
#370Earlier quoted context omitted.
All of the communications on these channels are typically legally discoverable, so it makes sense you don't want to introduce potential vectors for political discrimination in an increasingly remote world. There are plenty of non political topics to cover...Gardening, pets, clothing, home renovation, local music events and festivals, kids, etc. In all the teams I've been on, political topics never came up. It's okay…
Gardening: So are you a climate change wacko or a doomsday prepper wacko? Clothing: Do you know where I can get my leather chaps repaired? Home Renovation: I need to get a permit and inspection for my rec room renovation. They want confirmation that the beam can hold 400lbs in the sex-swing. Any topic can be political if you are enough of a jerk.
Yep. I do wonder if we've lost the ability to talk and recognize common experiences versus politics and people are looking to go full jerk.