Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

dw.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

361–370 of 370 posts

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#361

Post by mariusor »

varispeed wrote: post #295
schnitzelstoat wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Socialism is the worker's ownership of the means of production not "when the Government does stuff" Taxing unoccupied properties could help to ensure existing properties were actually used and not just held empty by speculators. But yeah, the main solution is building stuff - I think we need to build residential skyscrapers in the West like they have in Eastern cities, otherwise the urban population densities we are…

> Taxing unoccupied properties could help to ensure existing properties were actually used and not just held empty by speculators. This won't work, as investors can hire people to live in the property and it will make it more expensive as a result, as someone will have to pay for that extra admin.

I'm sure that getting payed by people for living in the property, would be better than having to pay people to live there, but I'm no economist.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#362

Post by ewindal »

Tenoke wrote: post #260
ewindal wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon Berlin has >€80k for entry level roles.

FAANG typically pay more than everyone else. Also sites like glassdoor report 70k for the average Berlin Amazon Software Engineer Salary. https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Amazon-Software-Development...

Add the additional pay for a total comp of more than 80k. Might be out of the norm for L4, but that's what I was offered.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#363

Post by corty »

qayxc wrote: post #352
corty wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yes. Because environmental activism is basically an instrument of NIMBYism, not anything based on facts, evidence or logic. Nobody really protests when farmers spread their poison, because that would be inconveniently far away, lots of work, etc. But protesting about the destruction of the neighbouring daisy habitat is an easy feel-good measure, and if you can NIMBY you way into higher value of your real estate…

And you don't see the contradiction there? On the one hand you say that the environment is protected more than the people yet here you argue that it's actually the people who benefit instead of nature. Which is it?

People at large aren't really protected in any way here. Neither is the environment at large. There are just a small number of people who advance their interests by selectively pretending to protect some insignificant part of the environment. That this sometimes has big repercussions like cancelling major projects is sold as a big win for the environment, when it actually is a tiny, insignificant and non-proportional one. So in the presentation, we are doing a lot and sacrificing a lot for the environment (not really, but it is presented that way) when we are actually just doing nothing but to hinder progress in other areas.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#364

Post by dathinab »

pizza234 wrote: post #358
nicbou wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A common trick was to pair the rent contract with Renting some token furniture for completely unreasonable That's a problem with the Mietpreisbremse, but not so much with the Mietendeckel, which also sets limits on furnished flats. You also can't just throw in an IKEA BILLY shelf and call it furnished (in the words of my lawyer).

This is correct, however: > Again if both renter and rentee are happy with it there is nothing which the state could have done. Landlords will cheat, and clients will do everything in order to get an apartment. I've seen rental appointments with landlords, with 30/40 prospective clients, and I've always wondered if price is really the problem. I've even done a sort of test, and offered more than requested - and it di…

Exactly that,

also they didn't rent out a furnished apartment, they will rent out a apartment and you will rent some overpriced furniture independent of the apartment from a 3rd party. It just "happened" that you sign both at the same time and that the same person (through proxy) profits from both.

While this still is illegal, it's to a point where even if the renting person tries to sue it likely would not be a super simple case, i.e. would take time.

And then if you agree on it why should you sue? And if you rant and then sue are you not afraid on ending up on secret illegal but unpreventable black list making it harder to find a apartment or gain a incorrect but still very troublesome Schufa (credit scoring) entry?

The problem is often phrased as people renting out apartments for moon prices.

But that's not the case, they rent them out for prices which are paid in many cases.(Also cost for renovating/building nearly doubled in the last ~10y for smaller property owners.).

The actual problem is that the people living in Berlin since a long time (potentially birth) don't earn enough to continue to do so. It's not that there aren't people paying and therefore there are a lot of empty properties (ok in some areas that happens too, in Berlin less so).

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#365

Post by gr__or »

Berliner here with a fairly leftie friend group, but decently interested in market dynamics:

There was money to be made in housing 10 years ago when rents were half of what they are today. What changed is the demand / supply ratio. I guess the laissez-faire logic would be that higher demand drives up the prices so much that investors can't help themselves but build more. Do we have empirical data from other cities that show that relationship? I.e. as rental prices rise so does private investment in housing? And also the opposite, how much do rent caps like the one in Berlin influence housing investment longer-term? I'd argue our Berlinian experiment did not get a real chance to run, given the expectations around it were that the courts might over-turn it, as they did.

From my understanding and from I read over on freakonomics a lot of the assumptions about rent caps come from single neighborhoods in NY which I'd argue does not generalize.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#366

Post by dgellow »

southerntofu wrote: post #121
dgellow wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of unused space is Berlin is just so massive. Even in Friedrichstraße, which is a hype neighborhood with great amount of activity, you have hundreds of square meters completely unused, with wild plants growing around and random waste accumulating. From what I understand it is very difficult to do something with that space, either because people refuse to sell or because of bureaucratic red tape.

> The amount of unused space is Berlin is just so massive. What's wrong with that? Enjoy the little green space you have left while it lasts. Have a BBQ with friends over there, maybe? The gentrifiers/developers won't be so long to remove every last bit of green and freedom in your neighborhood, as they did everywhere else.

Nobody is talking about removing the green parts. I'm talking about completely unused wasteland in active parts of the city. The space could be used to create actual parks, stores, or more housing units, but it is instead just a place where dust, wild plants, and waste accumulate.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#367

Post by dgellow »

spdionis wrote: post #85
dgellow wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of unused space is Berlin is just so massive. Even in Friedrichstraße, which is a hype neighborhood with great amount of activity, you have hundreds of square meters completely unused, with wild plants growing around and random waste accumulating. From what I understand it is very difficult to do something with that space, either because people refuse to sell or because of bureaucratic red tape.

Wild plants growing around in a city, the horror!

When you have wasted space in a city with massive rent increase, then yes, it's horror. The land could be easily used to create new park areas, stores, or housing units. Instead you have absolutely nothing other than waste accumulating.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#368

Post by dgellow »

yokaze wrote: post #257
dgellow wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of unused space is Berlin is just so massive. Even in Friedrichstraße, which is a hype neighborhood with great amount of activity, you have hundreds of square meters completely unused, with wild plants growing around and random waste accumulating. From what I understand it is very difficult to do something with that space, either because people refuse to sell or because of bureaucratic red tape.

> Even in Friedrichstraße, which is a hype neighborhood with great amount of activity, you have hundreds of square meters completely unused, with wild plants growing around and random waste accumulating. Two things: I think you put too much value to Friedrichstraße, and likely Mitte in general. It is the physical and historic city centre, but that doesn't have the same meaning as it has in other cities. Second, in ma…

I don't give special value to Fridrichstraße, it's just an example of land being wasted in a massive city with important rent issues.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#369

Post by aeternum »

corty wrote: post #247
cbqfund wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And (2) means that privacy oriented persons no longer can get an apartment in Germany. BTW, 10% of these data collecting advertisements on the real estate websites are from identity thieves.

Actually what they are doing and asking for is illegal. Asking for credit scores, proof of employment and sensitive stuff like that is only legal when an offer to rent is actually being made to that candidate. Just having everybody send in everything is common, but should never happen. However, privacy watchdogs are somewhat toothless and future renters put up with it because they have no other choice.

This behavior is often due to the difficulty of evicting a tenant. In Berlin, the process can take 3-9 months and can be easily contested.

There's no easy solution. Everyone puts the blame on the landlord saying they should be careful who they rent to, but that's difficult to do without doing some kind of background check on tenants and can also lead to discrimination.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#370

Post by ikerdanzel »

tonyjstark wrote: post #59
adrianN wrote: post #11

I wish Berlin would just build more housing instead. For example when I cross the street there is a supermarket. It's a single story building with a huge parking lot around it. Why not make it a multistory building with apartments on top of the supermarket and skip the parking space or put it underground? Why does the city give out building permits for such buildings? There could easily be room for thirty families on…

Same here. The city itself should build as many cheap rental apartments as possible, also in more higher-priced areas to keep the pricing there in check. Building more housing is the only way out of this soaring pricing. EDIT: not only rental apartments of course but more housing in general. A second step would be, to make sure that rental housing is used for that instead of AirBNB or any other investment. It would a…

Basically like Singapore HDB apartments. Unfortunately, no western countries able to that well due to lack of political will that some Asian countries gained through lesser democratic freedom. Essentially those that shit themselves in rent affordability gets what they deserve from years and years of voting pattern.
Post reply on HN