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Et Tu, Signal?

stephendiehl.com

361–370 of 459 posts

Re: Et Tu, Signal?

#361

Good Morning, I am the CEO of MobileCoin. A few points: 1) I started MobileCoin to fund Signal. That’s it. I believe that a world with a well-funded signal is a better place. In order for signal to compete in the 21st century with messaging apps around the world they need a payment story. MobileCoin is the only thing ever built that is both privacy protecting and fast that meets the standards of data retention signal…

> In order for signal to compete in the 21st century with messaging apps around the world they need a payment story.

No, it does not.

There are two distinct groups of people using Signal. None of these groups needs MobileCoin-based payments.

Group one is probably the biggest and consists of "normal" users which use Signal because it's the free messenger that is NOT affiliated to Facebook and has a good reputation with regard to privacy and data protection. There's another messenger with similarly good reputation, Threema, but that one costs money, hence Signal is the more popular choice. These users may indeed find a simple payment solution through their messenger a useful feature, but they want to send each other "money", not "MobileCoins". Those are not interchangeable for this kind of user; they expect to send whatever is their local currency, USD or EUR or whatever, and they expect the entirety of the money they send to arrive at the target - having 20% crypto market swings within minutes eradicate 20% of their share of last week's restaurant check while they're transferring it to their friend is a non-starter for this group. So are exchange fees for USD-MOB/EUR-MOB exchanges before and after sending money, even if the exchange execution itself may be automatically run in the background. This is true especially since there are already well-known and established solutions out there specifically targeting this particular need - PayPal Friends and the Cash App for example. Sure, it would be nice to have messenger integration, but if the only way to get that is to transact in MOB instead of USD and always send 10% more value than you intend to pay just to ensure the receiver gets "enough", the established out-of-band solutions which don't have those problems will simply be used. Also, this group doesn't really have strict anonymity requirements, because they usually send money (and messages) to people they know in real life as well. Whether your awesome crypto coin is more anonymous than PayPal thus doesn't matter at all for these guys.

Group two consists of those that actually depend on Signal's security, privacy and anonymity features because they need exactly that in a messenger. Think whistleblowers, journalists, people doing stuff that's illegal where they live. A lot of these want to send information to their contacts, not monetary value, and don't have any use for a payment option in a messenger. And even those that do want to transfer monetary value won't exactly be enticed by a one-click crypto transfer feature in their secure messenger, since they can be assumed to be technically competent enough to utilize the already-existing cryptocurrencies (especially those with a much longer history of privacy protection, such as Monero) and crypto exchanges to perform whatever monetary exchange they want to do. I would even say that these people would explicitly NOT want to use a messenger-integrated cryptocurrency, because that limits them in their choice of cryptocurrency and fiat on/off-ramps, which are crucial decisions to be made carefully if you want to preserve your anonymity. And the entire idea that these guys would switch from Signal to WeChat just because "WeChat has a money sending function" is blatantly absurd.

I do not see any sufficiently large group of people that might get any value out of this MobileCoin-Signal-integration feature. Hence I predict this feature to ultimately fail due to lack of user interest. But that will only become clear AFTER a lot of good-will from tech- and privacy-minded people has been burnt by this unnecessary stunt, as can be seen for example here in the HN comments.

Re: Et Tu, Signal?

#362
post #290
post #20

I definitely agree with the article that it felt a bit like a betrayal. I've pushed some friends and family to use it over Telegram despite significant usability issue, and now I see that instead of implementing some IMO basic features like proper message sync and easy backup when you get a new phone, they prefer to implement a... micropayment system? Based on some niche altcoin which doesn't even exist on mainstream…

Mobilecoin (Foundation) is a technological, ethical, and legal tour de force. I recommend you read their FAQ, but, to me anyway, it is obvious why Signal/Moxie needed to create a new coin (tl;dr: It needed to be a private venmo-like experience). To prevent conflicts of interest, a new org was created. Hence Mobilecoin, not SignalCoin. A few highlights: Technological: * First Oblivious RAM implementation, "fog", so th…

As a signal user and even promoter my biggest issue with a new cryptocurrency is that my privacy and security concerns for a chat app are different from my privacy and security concerns for monetary transfers.

I'm not sure why you find Monero's confirmation any more stressful than instant-like blockchains, most wallets will show pending transactions as soon as they enter the mempool.

Re: Et Tu, Signal?

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you say are the cons of Telegram? I've been highly impressed with the UX for quite some time, but have refrained from pushing it (and the likes) onto friends. My family and friends seems to have slowly drifted towards signal, and I haven't bothered affecting that, but if I would go from a pure UX, I'd suggest telegram. So, I'm genuinely curious to know others' thoughts on it. I have only limited knowledge,…

> cons of Telegram? Also, Telegram is not federated. It is just another vendor lock-in. https://github.com/telegramdesktop/tdesktop/issues/6841 https://github.com/telegramdesktop/tdesktop/issues/16068 Contrast that to email. Even if gmail.com bans you or shuts down, you can still use a different email vendor or self-host. (You lose your old email address if you don't own a domain, but you can still communicate with o…

As we've seen from XMPP and Matrix federation comes with it's own set of tradeoffs. Matrix (specifically the element client) has come very far but it's still not at a state where I can reccomended it to non technical acquaintances.

Re: Et Tu, Signal?

#364

Good Morning, I am the CEO of MobileCoin. A few points: 1) I started MobileCoin to fund Signal. That’s it. I believe that a world with a well-funded signal is a better place. In order for signal to compete in the 21st century with messaging apps around the world they need a payment story. MobileCoin is the only thing ever built that is both privacy protecting and fast that meets the standards of data retention signal…

What financial interest does Moxie have in MobileCoin Inc, MobileCoin TS Ltd or any connected business? Does he stand to gain from the success of MobileCoin?

You could have avoided most of the criticisms if you had a clear explanation of why you pre-mined. Saying that you intend to sell it is not as reassuring as you seem to think it is.

Re: Et Tu, Signal?

#365
post #230
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Signal explicitly disallows third party clients https://github.com/LibreSignal/LibreSignal/issues/37#issueco...

A workable fork would most likely require standing up new servers that would be isolated from the existing Signal user base. I think we'll see a handful of forks very shortly and it will be interesting to see how the new maintainers navigate the current landscape.

There is already a fork, it's called Session, but it's decentralized, so there's no requirement for servers to be stood up other than introducer nodes AFAIK. https://getsession.org/

Re: Et Tu, Signal?

#366

Good Morning, I am the CEO of MobileCoin. A few points: 1) I started MobileCoin to fund Signal. That’s it. I believe that a world with a well-funded signal is a better place. In order for signal to compete in the 21st century with messaging apps around the world they need a payment story. MobileCoin is the only thing ever built that is both privacy protecting and fast that meets the standards of data retention signal…

Why can't I find details about your node partner vetting process and what the requirements are to be considered a partner to run a node?

Re: Et Tu, Signal?

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What percentage of the coins does MobileCoin and its founders/early investors currently hold? Seems your early investors certainly have a large chunk https://threader.app/thread/1335948142022311936

MobileCoin has made over 50% of the coins available for purchase. We are currently figuring out how to give away coins while remaining regulatory compliant.

I'll ask again: Why are you geoblocking US based users from the sales page you linked previously?

Re: Et Tu, Signal?

#368
post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MobileCoin uses a combination of two other private coins, Monero and Zcash. There are no addresses on the MobileCoins's blockchain to be correlated. Didn't it cross your mind that a private messenger would probably use a private cryptocurrency?

With a "private" crypto-currency you're still making a bet that there's no exploit. Roping payments into a message app increases the attack surface for both.

Monero's primatives are pretty well researched [0]. Of course there is always the chance of bugs in the implimentation but it looks MobileCoin's crypto primatives library has at least been audited [1].

[0] https://www.getmonero.org/resources/research-lab/

[1] https://github.com/RustCrypto/AEADs/issues/87

Re: Et Tu, Signal?

#369

Good Morning, I am the CEO of MobileCoin. A few points: 1) I started MobileCoin to fund Signal. That’s it. I believe that a world with a well-funded signal is a better place. In order for signal to compete in the 21st century with messaging apps around the world they need a payment story. MobileCoin is the only thing ever built that is both privacy protecting and fast that meets the standards of data retention signal…

Is it a stable coin? Users want to send real money; MOB is just temporary inconvenience necessary for digitalization. Do you guaranter that users can get out the same £ they put in (minus a clearly disclosed fee, within a reasonable time frame of days to weeks)?

If not, it's useless. I'm a chat app user, not a Forex trader.

Re: Et Tu, Signal?

#370
post #61

I'm a little surprised that nobody is mentioning that any kind of blockchain payment system creates a permanent, public ledger. One US Attorney called Bitcoin's blockchain "prosecution futures" as it's only a matter of time before the sender/receiver addresses for transactions are correlated with unique individuals. This permanent, public record of a transaction between a Signal account and another user or a service…

A very good point. Signal's tying encrypted messages and phone numbers to a publicly available ledge of transactions?

It looks like MobileCoin is a mix of Monero and Stellar Consensus so the transactions will be protected by Ring CT (https://www.getmonero.org/resources/moneropedia/ringCT.html).
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