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Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

supremecourt.gov

361–370 of 965 posts

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#361
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes I fantasize about generating methods for creating copyrights, such that you can copyright the process of creating the copyright - for the commmunity, obviously. However, they explicitly forbid that, unfortunately. If only it worked, you could file a claim for anyone that created a copyright to your disliking, given that you probably make strong stance. While I'm at it, in a similar vein though entirely unre…

You can't copyright a procedure or process, but you can copyright the text of the instructions for the procedure. That doesn't stop someone writing an original text of instructions for doing the same thing though. That's how come there are clones of Monopoly. https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/20311/horse-opoly

Board games are protected with patents. For example, with Khet ( https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/16991/khet-laser-game ) there is https://patents.google.com/patent/US7264242 which was upheld - https://www.generalpatent.com/professor-s-company-wins-1-6-m...

The patent for Monopoly is https://patents.google.com/patent/US2026082A/en which expired in '52

There is also issues of trademark on the '-opoly' games... which was settled in '83 with https://www.americanbar.org/groups/intellectual_property_law...

> Finally, in 1983, the Supreme Court let stand an appeals court ruling that the word “Monopoly” had become generic, because purchasers associated the name with the product rather than with the source.7 Specifically, evidence showed that purchasers of Monopoly were motivated by their knowledge of the game, and not by its association with Parker Brothers. Directly as a result of this case, Congress amended § 14(c) of the Lanham Act, which addresses cancellation of a registered mark, later that year. Congress added language clarifying that a mark becomes generic only if its “primary significance . . . to the relevant public” is as the generic description of the particular goods or services, and that purchaser motivation is not used as the test.

---

There are clones of Monopoly because the patent expired long ago and the trademark was lost in 83. ... Which is also why McDonalds did its Monopoly game in '87.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am talking about C2 JIT support and other sota GCs. ART has an increasingly growing technical debt. No support for constant dynamic so no support for the upcoming pattern matching. No support for sub 1ms GC No support for the already available Vector API. No support for value types. No support for generic specialization. No support for Loom. ART is NIH and support with Java and Kotlin will explode into two worlds,…

If you think ART is an AOT system, you might want to refresh your understanding of the system. ART has had a JIT for a long time now. Sure, HotSpot might have some features ART lacks, but ART has features that HotSpot lacks, so it's a wash. (And ART already has sub-millisecond GC pause times.) It's good and healthy for a language to have multiple implementations and there's no obligation whatsoever on the part of the…

Hotspot has sub-millisecond GC pause times.

"But as long as your system isn’t heavily over-provisioned, you can expect to see average GC pause times of around 0.05ms (50µs) and max pause times of around 0.5ms (500µs)." https://malloc.se/blog/zgc-jdk16

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#363
post #242
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What bad things would have happened? This ruling specifically says that it was fair use, not that APIs are copyrightable - which seems to be the buggy man. As it currently stands, APIs absolutely fall under copyright laws.

>As it currently stands, APIs absolutely fall under copyright laws. This opinion doesn't say so. "We shall assume, but purely for argument’s sake, that the entire Sun Java API falls within the definition of that which can be copy-righted. We shall ask instead whether Google’s use of part of that API was a “fair use."

It would be dumb to declare true the opponent’s case in the argument, wouldn’t it?

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#364
post #194

> In this way, the declaring code’s shortcut function is similar to a gas pedal in a car that tells the car to move faster or the QWERTY keyboard on a typewriter that calls up a certain letter when you press a particular key. As those analogies demonstrate, one can think of the declaring code as part of an interface between human beings and a machine. I love this analogy, and I'm going to use it to describe this case…

Actually, I find this a bit underpowered. The whole idea is that the invention (in this case the API design or QWERTY in your example) is so powerful that it becomes a 'utility' - so Java's implementation was so powerful it really should have been 'patented' not copyrighted. Then after 20 years, you can take the true 'utility' of the API design from Java to the commons.

And yes, if ease of use will be a differentiator why people like Apple (whether it's right or wrong), then so is the ability to learn is an attribute to be protected from theft.

I say all this seeing exactly where Swift is heading, and probably why Apple created the language that will run their unified APIs... because there's no other way to join except through their Swift gates.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#365

I would imagine if the ruling went the other way, IBM might want to talk to all the BIOS companies. Luckily, that didn't happen.

and Amazon could talk to Oracle who "borrwed" the S3 API for their cloud storage.

S3 explicitly changed their license to allow copying the S3 API. I forget the year, ~2010? I was working an S3 at the time and it was a strongly debated decision.

Google’s initial launch of their cloud storage copied not just the S3 API, but also the error codes.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#366
I don't quite know how to say this but, is it possible to be happy about the outcome but have a feeling that it was probably legally not quite straightforward. I mean everyone (or most) on here is probably pleased with the outcome, but extremely biased?

Also if Sun was still around would people be rooting for them instead of Google? Oracle isn't exactly easy to love.

I'm not looking for pound keyboard replies from people that disagree, I'm just curious if there are others that have the same feeling.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#368
post #311

Although I applaud the effect of this decision, I can't help but agree with Clarence Thomas that the reasoning behind it is not sound. It waffles back and forth between arguments for fair use and arguments that APIs are not (or at least should not be) copyrightable in the first place. You can't have it both ways. If APIs are copyrightable (and a plain reading of the text of the law appears to indicate that they are)…

The purpose was clearly commercial, not educational or a parody.

This is addressed in the decision on page 27. The Court wrote:

The text of §107 includes various noncommercial uses, such as teaching and scholarship, as paradigmatic examples of privileged copying. There is no doubt that a finding that copying was not commercial in nature tips the scales in favor of fair use. But the inverse is not necessarily true, as many common fair uses are indisputably commercial. For instance, the text of §107 includes examples like “news reporting,” which is often done for commercial profit. So even though Google’s use was a commercial endeavor—a fact no party disputed, see 886 F. 3d, at 1197—that is not dispositive of the first factor, particularly in light of the inherently transformative role that the reimplementation played in the new Android system.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#369

Judge William Alsup learned to code for this case, and was therefore able to avoid a lot of the BS being peddled around the significance of some of the code: > The argument centered on a function called rangeCheck. ... It was in Oracle’s interest to play up the significance of rangeCheck as much as possible, and David Boies, Oracle’s lawyer, began to argue that Google had copied rangeCheck so that it could take Andro…

I just took a look at the rangeCheck: https://majadhondt.wordpress.com/2012/05/16/googles-9-lines/ Is this example correct? Can someone explain to me how this: if (toIndex > arrayLen) is correct? If the array length is say 5, and toIndex is 5, that should still throw an index out of bounds exception, right? But it would be acceptable here.

The upper bound of the range is intended to be exclusive, while the lower bound is inclusive - basically, the same s array indexing convention. It allows the case where fromIndex == toIndex to represent the empty range (note that this check does permit fromIndex to equal toIndex, but never to exceed it), and the number of entries in a given range is always defined by toIndex - fromIndex.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#370
post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And OpenJDK is GPLv2 with a classpath exception. So why is Google unable to use Java's API here while Oracle able to use Amazon's API?

IIRC (this case has been going on for way to long) they didn't cope the GPLed version of the code (oracle/sun had another proprietary version).

So the original case had claims against copying more of the original Sun JVM code than just the API--the entire furor over "rangeCheck" was a key part of the original case. By the first appeal, this was reduced to a de minimis claim of copyright and Oracle no longer pursued claims of copyright on anything but the API.

My understanding is that all of the APIs in question are shared between the (now-Oracle) JVM and the OpenJDK implementation. (Indeed, I think the actual implementation of the Java code in question is the same between the closed and open source versions, it's only the JVM itself that differs.)

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