Early-Retirement Update • Hacker News Board

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#361

Post by kelnos » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 1:36 AM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #287

kelnos wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, retirement and those other kinds of work you mention aren't incompatible. I think when we talk about retirement and not "working", we're specifically talking about not having a job that pays money. Though many people still consider themselves retired while holding a part-time job or working freelance some number of hours. This is why in part I think the distinction between "FI" and "RE" is pretty small. I absol…

Another great post. Thanks a lot. I definitely would say “doing nothing” - however we would define that isn’t something I’d put a moral judgement on. I think maybe the colloquial “relax on the beach” isn’t really possible long term. Maybe a year at most. I think most people historically at least just say on the couch. Contrast with maybe the idea (reality is questionable) of the old man in the Italian country side or…

Yeah, I feel the old "relax on the beach for the rest of your life" trope is trotted out often enough but is fantastically unrealistic. I wouldn't say that literally no one would be happy doing that, but I feel like it'd be incredibly rare.

For myself, I'd probably be happy to tinker with open source software and small electronics projects for most of my days, along with some language-learning, cooking experimentation, and other random hobbies, and relaxing, therapeutic tasks like playing with my cat (perhaps similar in feel to tending gardens).

> ... when thinking about what retirement really means.

The nice thing about approaching retirement from a FI perspective is that retirement can mean whatever you want it to mean, within your financial projections, at least.

> Really enjoying your posts. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

And yours as well! Thank you!

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#362

Post by bluGill » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 1:37 AM UTC

jjav wrote: post #351

bulletwolf wrote: post #171

I've got 5 years of early retirement under my belt, and I feel like I've had the inverse experience of the OP. The first two years were an incredibly difficult transition period for me. Losing the status of being a higher up at a successful (small) company was extremely painful, especially because I didn't realize how much of a perk of the job it was. Like many others in this thread, I realized work provided a venue…

> work provided a venue to solve interesting problems with interesting people I wish there was a way to find a more balanced work culture (in the USA, other countries may have this already) to be able to continue solving interesting problems with interesting people, as you say, but also live life outside work. I'd give anything to be able to work maybe 15-20 hours a week at half or a even a third of my salary. But em…

Find a different industry. You can make 6 figures in des Moines and they assume you only work 40 hours.

Mind you I know several people who did that for a while and then decided insurance software is soul sucking and so they took a pay cut to work for someone else with more meaning in life. (But they didn't leave des Moines so still 40 hour weeks )

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#363

Post by jjav » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 1:39 AM UTC

pcglue wrote: post #184

2.8M nut, about 50/50 in regular/retirement accounts. I'm mid 40's, married with two pre-teen kids, annual expenses of $80K, live in HCOL area (Southern California). Would you FIRE in this situation? Would you take a year long hiatus? As much as I would like to FIRE, I can't/won't, even though the "numbers" say I probably could. But seriously considering a months to year long career break/sabbatical/hiatus, because I…

Realistically you can't retire, not with two pre-teen kids.

But you can take a comfortable number of years off though and it is very nice to do that. Decompress, spend tons of time with those pre-teen kids while they still are that age.

I took about 3 years off in my 40s when my child was starting elementary school. Spent all my afternoons playing with the kid and all mornings (school time) working on my personal projects at home. Highly recommended!

With 2.8M while you can't retire forever, you also won't have any urgency to find a new job so you can be picky when you start looking, like I was. Finding a new job can be difficult if you're desperate for it, but with no urgency you can hold out for a great job.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#364

Post by cortesoft » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 1:43 AM UTC

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #346

cortesoft wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really found this passage of the essay ironic.... he talks so much shit about his partner and other people needing to "keep up" with the rest of society and how he isn't like that.... but then he actually does feel the need to keep up with HIS community, which is the FI crowd. I hate when people confuse not wanting to belong to and impress a particular community with not wanting to belong to or impress ANY communit…

I didn't get that read at all. A desire to maintain happiness whilst having no job to dictate time and activities isn't "just in a different group". I think they're somewhat non-conformist by posting about negatives and the fact that life will push you in unpredictable directions - even when you've done the maths. But maybe that's because I tend to agree with the commentary around 'other people needing to "keep up" w…

I don't see how you can read this passage and not see that his feelings of inadequacy compared to other FI bloggers isn't the same "keeping up" that he criticized in his ex and others:

> I looked at other FI bloggers who quit work and retired. They all appeared to be blissful. Stoic. Confident and without reservations. Since I ran into problems myself, I started to feel like I was defective. Like something was wrong with me and that’s why it didn’t work so well.

That is the EXACT same emotion people feel when seeing their peers who are posting their wealth on Facebook. It might not be material wealth he is trying to keep up with, but it is still the same emotional desire.

He is still keeping up with the Jones's... just a different group of Jones's

There is nothing wrong with that, except he expresses such disgust for other people having that need, while pretending his own doesn't exist.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#365

Post by ggggtez » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 1:52 AM UTC

TL;DR - Guy starts out thinking he's smarter and wiser than his friends

> "I see our current lives as better. Theirs appear to be a constant struggle most of the time."

Magically his opinion about being a wage slave changes the moment he realizes he needs money.

> Overall, though, I find I’m mostly okay with working again, especially because I suddenly need and value the money.

Amazing insight here.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#366

Post by tppiotrowski » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 1:59 AM UTC

The reason I believe most people don’t love their jobs is because people rarely donate to charity, refuse to give money to pan handlers and hate paying taxes. There is a feeling that you are “sacrificing” your life (you’d rather be doing something else) when you go to work and you cling to the money you earn for your “sacrifice”.

Now imagine you got paid for running, reading, watching Netflix or sleeping. Something you really enjoy. I think we would see more people dropping a homeless man a $5’er thinking I’m planning to run/read/sleep later anyways. There is no sacrifice to get that money back. It was what I would have done anyways.

Edit: now that I think about it, social status probably keeps people clinging to that money.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#367

Post by mratzloff » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 2:20 AM UTC

glangdale wrote: post #348

The whole thing seemed weirdly condescending towards people with normal working and spending habits, especially because it's not obvious to me what was so great about what the author was doing. The dude hung out for a few years, failed to become a writer, and did some travel, bored his partner to tears, and ... "sucked down an awful lot of media — movies, video games, books", then learned the shit that normal people…

Calling someone who has made himself remarkably vulnerable and open a "bozo" because he doesn't have the same values or life experiences as you do is unkind and uncharitable. We all experience things in our own time and our own way, and while I have my own thoughts about his experiences and areas that he might examine more closely, I'm also not revealing personal details of my own life for public examination.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#368

Post by darth_avocado » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 2:24 AM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #68

I had to quit reading any FIRE (financial independence, early retirement) blogs because they were full of people headed down this same path: Extreme frugality, bare minimum savings, assuming their lifestyle would never change and nothing would ever go wrong. Retiring at 30 sounds great, but no one's life goes exactly to plan for next the 30-40 years until traditional retirement age. People change, expectations evolve…

I think what 99% of people need is a 1 year break from their jobs. If you can't find something meaningful in that 1 year, you'll never find happiness in FIRE. You need to find something that you'd be very happy doing, which also incidentally brings you enough money to supplement your FIRE.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#369

Post by BLKNSLVR » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 2:35 AM UTC

cortesoft wrote: post #364

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't get that read at all. A desire to maintain happiness whilst having no job to dictate time and activities isn't "just in a different group". I think they're somewhat non-conformist by posting about negatives and the fact that life will push you in unpredictable directions - even when you've done the maths. But maybe that's because I tend to agree with the commentary around 'other people needing to "keep up" w…

I don't see how you can read this passage and not see that his feelings of inadequacy compared to other FI bloggers isn't the same "keeping up" that he criticized in his ex and others: > I looked at other FI bloggers who quit work and retired. They all appeared to be blissful. Stoic. Confident and without reservations. Since I ran into problems myself, I started to feel like I was defective. Like something was wrong…

I can see your point, but I don't feel it. My mind wants to say those two things aren't comparable; apples and oranges. The only way I can explain it exposes my own bias, so I have to grant that you're right, but at the same time it doesn't change my bias as to which one is more "correct" or "wholesome" or "mentally healthy".

The need to have or display material wealth, on any level, as some kind of basis for happiness just isn't the same as the ability to be happy in ones self, naked to the world. One is unhealthy and unsustainable, the other isn't. "Like there was something wrong with me" more sounds like "maybe I do need that external validation more than I thought I did", more as a desire to be self-satisfied, or of a healthy state of mind, like (seemingly) other FI bloggers (the very fact they're bloggers may undermine the entirety of the argument, however).

OK, to put it into an analogy: if the Jones' were getting fit and healthy and looking after themselves would undertaking a health kick still be "keeping up with the Jones'" or would that be a good kick in the pants to get healthy yourself? (motivation and tenacity (w|c)ould be the differentiator).

If it's intrinsically positive, is that still pandering? If there's no perceived value other than the perceived value, then I'm on board with your argument.

It's likely to be a case of the ugliness of reality not often being blogged about, and so OP had an unrealistic expectation - in which case there's definitely an amount of Jonesing, but I'm maintaining there's a distinction between positive/healthy and negative/unhealthy Jonesing (so maybe I'm trying to move your goal posts whilst agreeing with you but still trying to appear to disagree).

This many words to justify my position. If it was anyone else I'd call denial.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#370

Post by lmm » Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 2:39 AM UTC

labcomputer wrote: post #201

psychiatrist24 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean MMM or the author here? How do you know he "got lucky", since he doesn't mention how he got his nest egg? (Yes in a wider sense lucky to be born smart enough for a good job, in a country with good jobs and so on, but that applies to many people). Maybe he took those FI blogs seriously and dedicated himself to reaching that goal, and he did. And then people who never tried say "he got lucky".

> Maybe he took those FI blogs seriously and dedicated himself to reaching that goal, and he did. And then people who never tried say "he got lucky". My problem with most of the advice from FI and FIRE blogosphere is that it essentially boils down to "be the 1% (where you live) and live frugally". It's not wrong , per se, but it isn't actionable advice for 99% of the population[1]. In particular, while anyone could b…

> In particular, while anyone could be MMM, not everyone can be MMM: There simply aren't enough people who read financial advice blogs to support a significant population of such bloggers living in rural LCOL-ville. Even if there were, someone has to stock the shelves at Walmart. Shelf-stockers simply don't earn enough to retire early, unless shelf-stocker wages rise to a level that makes blog-FIRE unsustainable.

If overall consumption were reduced by a factor of 10, everyone could work 10% as much over their lifetime. I see no reason that couldn't be a hard few years of shelf-stacking until you get together enough to retire. Maybe that would be a better way for society to operate.