Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies • Hacker News Board

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#361

Post by herbst » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 10:04 AM UTC

xiphias2 wrote: post #284

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i disagree wholeheartedly in that it is more cooperative. Switzerland is anything but cooperative. But that's what makes this country so great. We take our divisions, within cantons, and leverage them for positive externalities to (accidentally) benefit the greater good. In CH, every very canton sets their own citizenship policy. Its not a coincidence. Did you hear about the woman that's been living in Zug, and been…

One important thing that was not argued well in my opinion is that the Swiss National Bank pegged its Swiss franc to the euro on Sept. 6, 2011. I lost a lot of money on that day, because I had all my net worth in CHF, as I trusted it to keep its value and not be devalued fast. The good thing that came out from it is that I realized that even Switzerland's central bank cannot be trusted, and moved to Bitcoin. I never…

I too still dont really understand why they did that. I mean sure i get it, but it seems so counter intuitive especially now where we can expect the usd and eur to devalue even more

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#362

Post by cambaceres » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 10:05 AM UTC

Bayart wrote: post #308

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i disagree wholeheartedly in that it is more cooperative. Switzerland is anything but cooperative. But that's what makes this country so great. We take our divisions, within cantons, and leverage them for positive externalities to (accidentally) benefit the greater good. In CH, every very canton sets their own citizenship policy. Its not a coincidence. Did you hear about the woman that's been living in Zug, and been…

>So, while spain sends soldiers to die in Afghanistan, or the UK wastes decades of development on a grand EU project, or US citizens get spied on by their own govt via Patriot Act.... CH is just sitting pretty, doing its thing. Arguing about every little detail to exhaustion. Switzerland can afford to do this because it's surrounded by countries that protect it from the real world. It doesn't have a real foreign poli…

USA is basically surrounded by large oceans and they still spend by far the most on defence.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#363

Post by herbst » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 10:05 AM UTC

zorked wrote: post #219

wombatmobile wrote: post #55

Switzerland has an awesome electoral system [1]. Instead of being ruled by a president or a prime minister who can be polarising, divisive, or selective, Switzerland has an Executive Council. The 7 member Executive Council is composed of the top 7 candidates from each election. The chairperson of the executive council rotates each year, so that the top 4 vote winners each get a turn at being chairperson. This means t…

It has its advantages and disadvantages. It is also the political system that caused this: "In 1991 following a decision by the Federal Supreme Court of Switzerland, Appenzell Innerrhoden (AI) became the last Swiss canton to grant women the vote on local issues." Notice how it was a court decision, not a result of the political process. I'd say 1991 is a bit too late to have full voting rights for women. https://en.w…

If you think that is the worst example dig deeper :) Sennerburm for example, basically legal child slavery totally normal in europe until not to long ago. And yes switzerland took a bit longer than our neighboors

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#364

Post by herbst » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 10:07 AM UTC

mda wrote: post #354

DocTomoe wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to be precise here. Firstly "accepting a law" implies - in western liberal democracies - a legislative process in which a law is proposed and accepted by some kind of parliament. This is not what happened here - in Switzerland, laws can be given to the population directly by non-parliamentary, non-governmental organisations in referenda, which then become binding. The law you are referring to was accepted by…

Hey, "But only in public!" Are you really defending imprisoning Woman to their homes by maybe robbing them of their few privileges? I am utterly disgusted how they frame this bs.

You realize this is a cultural and not political issue?

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#365

Post by jeofken » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 10:09 AM UTC

mda wrote: post #355

jeofken wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN is very diverse :) But we all argue in good faith and are willing to yield to reason

"argue in good faith"? "willing to yield to reason"? Please.

Please don’t taint HN with this type of response. HN is such a rare place on the internet, and let’s keep it excellent.

The idea you’re dismissing is that of allowing small groups of people rule themselves which does mean some will use unconventional ways they consider best. Note that the Apenzellers didn’t hinder anyone who disagreed to leave or refuse to trade with them. They also didn’t force their way onto others.

Switzerland was once just a bunch of small independent nations in a military alliance, which allowed them decentralisation and having multiple competing systems, without everyone having to do it one way. If you have that, you must agree that your neighbour may live in a way you disagree with - but in exchange they will let you live in a way they disagree with, as I’m sure many from Apenzell think of the Züricher.

I imagine the Apenzellers argued that the job of the state is military protection. Conscription means the state forces you to give your life for it, and voting rights for conscripts means soldiers will only go to wars they collectively agree with, effectively ruling out wars of aggression. That’s how it was in my country, but I’m not familiar enough with Apenzell (except for their cheese) to talk about their history in this depth.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#366

Post by cies » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 10:11 AM UTC

kodah wrote: post #345

cies wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Genital mutilation of minors is next (Scandinavia is front running here). Nothing judeo-islamophobic, just the protection of what is dear to all of us (in this case bodily autonomy of children), and in no means against circumcision: you may still do it when you are 18, just parents should not be allowed to do it to you. A little tyranny of the majority is not always a bad thing.

> you may still do it when you are 18, just parents should not be allowed to do it to you You can read this in a positive light or a negative light. I know a guy who had that surgery done as an adult and it was incredibly painful and took a while to fully heal. I want to say it was almost a month. You could certainly argue that it's a lifetime of pain if it's done and you don't like it but that's likely a slippery sl…

Your friend had medical indication I guess? That's a whole other story, that's not "mutilation" but "the best in the given situation according to medical science".

Medical science is very clear about both male and female genital mutilation: lots of risk and potential harm, not real benefits.

And this does not grow back like nails and hair. It's not a fashion. It's literally putting a knife in your baby because some old culture prescribes it. No problem with that: just do it when the kid reaches the age of consent.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#367

Post by _v7gu » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 10:11 AM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #324

_v7gu wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Point is, islam was a progressive religion. But many countries took it in as a regressive one since they were also taking in customs from the culture which islam was supposed to progress. Which totally misses the point. You shouldn't have been importing burqua if women were already were allowed to go outside without it.

The reality is that progress tends to be a case of two steps forward and one step back. It's also reality that this is true in part because people come up with these theoretical ideals of equality or something and they sometimes don't work in practical reality. Additionally, one way to spread religion is to be tolerant of the existing culture of the people you are hoping to spread the religion to. This is Christianit…

Yes, I'm mainly complaining about the reverse happening with islam's spread (due to it being spread by wars). Instead of islam progressively adapting to each country's culture, it brought regressive practices with it.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#368

Post by mFixman » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 10:12 AM UTC

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #275

wombatmobile wrote: post #55

Switzerland has an awesome electoral system [1]. Instead of being ruled by a president or a prime minister who can be polarising, divisive, or selective, Switzerland has an Executive Council. The 7 member Executive Council is composed of the top 7 candidates from each election. The chairperson of the executive council rotates each year, so that the top 4 vote winners each get a turn at being chairperson. This means t…

i disagree wholeheartedly in that it is more cooperative. Switzerland is anything but cooperative. But that's what makes this country so great. We take our divisions, within cantons, and leverage them for positive externalities to (accidentally) benefit the greater good. In CH, every very canton sets their own citizenship policy. Its not a coincidence. Did you hear about the woman that's been living in Zug, and been…

> This means, big project ambitions get cut down to size, and few grand things if any, get done at the federal level. But this is glorious: it is very hard for regulations to become calcified within the state apparatus.

And yet, Switzerland's nationalised train network is one of the most extensive and effective in the world.

How did that happen?

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#369

Post by jeofken » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 10:14 AM UTC

Ascarius wrote: post #327

jeofken wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you so sure that your ideal is how they should live? What I admire about the Swiss is how they live and let live - they may disagree with the neighbour, but let them be.

Actually at the same votation, Switzerland accepted a law which forbid women to wear Burka. Which is not exactly let live.

What they don’t do though is tell people in Muslim countries that they must live like a European.

The Swiss rule their house, and let others rule theirs, and this is what I mean with living and letting live.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#370

Post by jeofken » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 10:16 AM UTC

kodah wrote: post #345

cies wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Genital mutilation of minors is next (Scandinavia is front running here). Nothing judeo-islamophobic, just the protection of what is dear to all of us (in this case bodily autonomy of children), and in no means against circumcision: you may still do it when you are 18, just parents should not be allowed to do it to you. A little tyranny of the majority is not always a bad thing.

> you may still do it when you are 18, just parents should not be allowed to do it to you You can read this in a positive light or a negative light. I know a guy who had that surgery done as an adult and it was incredibly painful and took a while to fully heal. I want to say it was almost a month. You could certainly argue that it's a lifetime of pain if it's done and you don't like it but that's likely a slippery sl…

Don’t you think it hurts a child to cut their genitals? I’m ashamed it’s allowed in my country, and due to socialised health care I must fund it. It’s child abuse.