Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why should land values go up? The fraction of land needed for PV vs. the available land is very small.
According to https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/us-energy-facts/ , the US consumes 100 quadrillion BTU or 30 million GWH each year, and according to https://www.seia.org/initiatives/siting-permitting-land-use-... , 1GW requires 5000-10000 acres. If I'm mathing properly, that's about 25M acres or the state of Tennessee. Of course, we already have something like 11% of our energy supply met by renewables, so maybe we…
Activists who embrace nuclear power
361–370 of 598 posts
Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power
#362Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nuclear is actually intentionally crippled through legislation under over-hyped concerns over dirty bombs accidents (for the right and left politically inclined respectively). Nuclear can be done safe, efficient, cheap and at-scale. All it requires is to allow for the secondary market of spent fuel like was originally started when nuclear first starting to get rolled out. The security concerns can be handled in other…
Nuclear loses to alternatives on a pure ROI basis. Even in places where political opposition or legislation is a total non issue (eg China) you see exactly the same bad math when it comes to the $. I feel like a broken record posting this in every thread about nuclear. There's too many people on this forum that have some sort of smug attitude about not being "scared" of nuclear power and don't bother to learn what's…
The reality is that renewables have no plan to eliminate carbon emissions that isn't contingent on a massive breakthrough in energy storage. The US currently had under 10 minutes of energy storage. Renewables offer better carbon emissions reductions on a dollar by dollar basis until they saturate the market during peak production. Then they don't help.
Sure, nuclear is more expensive but it is the only existing solution that aims to actually eliminate carbon emissions. Not just supplement fossil fuels.
Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power
#363Earlier quoted context omitted.
> No I didn't. Yes. You did. Solar panels do not use rare earth minerals. Go google it. Rare earth magnets are used in some wind turbines, but alternatives exist there. That does change the cost calculations a touch, but not enough to invalidate the viability of a renewables + storage solution. > I'm saying that you will need vast new tracks of land regardless of that fact. People have done the math. Land availabilit…
> People have done the math. Land availability is not a bottleneck on this. I'm sorry but people have done the maths and consider land availability to be a major bottleneck for solar and wind (with the fact that it is intermittent). That's like one of the first point put forward in the Bill Gates'book everyone seems to be talking about nowadays. Offshore capacity means it's harder to estimate the ceiling for wind pro…
World marketed energy consumption is 18 terawatts. Terrestrial insolation is 127 petawatts (below the atmosphere. Also my earlier figure here of 41 was incorrect.) Common PV solar panels are 16–24% efficient, so the total PV resource is 20–30 petawatts, 1000–1500 times larger. Utility-scale PV capacity factors (relative to the nominal 1000 W/m² peak insolation) in polar countries like Germany and the Netherlands are around 10%, which is abysmal, but in California they average 29%, and in more equatorial countries with less clouds they're presumably higher (I'd be grateful for more data here but I've only found what look like trustworthy, transparent operational reports containing this data from the US, Germany, and the Netherlands).
Let's look at three cases here: a worst case, a best case, and a plausible case.
In the worst case, all our solar panels are in terrible places like Germany with a 10% capacity factor, and they're all cheap 16%-efficient panels, and also the world marketed energy consumption doubles to 36 terawatts. In that case they take up 2.3 million square kilometers, a circle of 850 km radius. This is about 13% of the area of Russia or 17% of the area of Siberia.
You have: double 18 TW / 10% / (1000 W/m^2) / 16%
You want: km^2
* 2250000
/ 4.4444444e-07
You have: double 18 TW / 10% / (1000 W/m^2) / 16%
You want: circlearea
846284.38 m
You have: double 18 TW / 10% / (1000 W/m^2) / 16%
You want: 17125191 km^2
* 0.1313854
/ 7.611196
In the best case, world marketed energy consumption goes down slightly to 16 terawatts, all the panels are using expensive 24%-efficient monocrystalline solar cells, and they're all located in places like the Atacama, the Gobi, and the Sahara, so there are no clouds, it virtually never rains, and the sun is nearly directly overhead, so their capacity factor is even better than California's. Say, 35%. In that case we only need 190 thousand km², a 246-km-radius circle. This is a little bigger than Tunisia or about 36% of the area of Yemen: You have: 16 TW / 35% / (1000 W/m^2) / 24%
You want: km^2
* 190476.19
/ 5.25e-06
You have: 16 TW / 35% / (1000 W/m^2) / 24%
You want: circlearea
246232.52 m
You have: 16 TW / 35% / (1000 W/m^2) / 24%
You want: 527968 km^2
* 0.36077223
/ 2.771832
For the plausible case, let's figure on a nominal capacity factor of 25% (like Arizona), 20% growth in usage to 22 terawatts, and low-cost 16%-efficient panels, even though PERC is starting to see mass adoption. This is 550 thousand km², a circle of 420 km radius (groovy, mang!), about 80% of the area of Texas: You have: 22 TW / 25% / (1000 W/m^2) / 16%
You want: km^2
* 550000
/ 1.8181818e-06
You have: 22 TW / 25% / (1000 W/m^2) / 16%
You want: circlearea
418414.19 m
You have: 22 TW / 25% / (1000 W/m^2) / 16%
You want: 695662 km^2
* 0.79061383
/ 1.26484
This 18 TW figure isn't just electricity; it includes human energy use in forms like jet fuel, diesel for trucks, bunker fuel, and oil for heating, but not firewood, livestock feed, or human food. And it's world marketed energy consumption, not just the US: that Texas-sized area would be powering Australia, China, Brazil, and Madagascar too.So, no, land availability is not a bottleneck on this.
I'd like to challenge you all collectively to step up your epistemological game a bit from the profoundly disappointing "I'm sorry but" level you seem to be stuck at. It's just not that hard. There's a lot of concrete, verifiable information out there, and it's easy to do the calculations. Then if you're wrong you'll change your mind to agree with the people who were right, and if you were right the other people who will wrong will change their minds to agree with you. Either way you won't have anything to fight about. Unless they're just looking for an excuse to be vicious.
You should be ashamed of yourselves. You do not become a hacker by attacking people and repeating talking points you don't understand. You become a hacker by figuring things out.
Calculemus.
Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power
#364Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don’t follow. You could make the same argument about communal water heating versus having a heater in each home, yet of course such a position would be absurd. Millions of individual homes running their own solar, even with everybody hooked up for exporting, is quite feasible. It’s happening today. Having it be an arrangement where a power provider owns and maintains the panels isn’t necessary or desirable. Lease-t…
> You could make the same argument about communal water heating versus having a heater in each home, yet of course such a position would be absurd. If we could cheaply and efficiently transport hot water over miles and miles like we can with electricity then communal water heating would be much more common. Note that communal water heating is fairly normal (i.e., not "absurd") in large apartment, condominium, and com…
Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power
#365Earlier quoted context omitted.
This assumes that larger investment in nuclear won’t yield reduced costs, just as larger investments in solar did.
Given that nuclear has existed for quite some time now and hundreds of very costly plants have already been built, how much more cost-effectiveness can we expect? It feels like the current state is exactly what "larger investments" in nuclear get you.
Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power
#366Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power
#367Earlier quoted context omitted.
Solar & wind != nuclear. Solar and wind are not on demand and require storage that's not currently practical.
Nuclear also isn't 'on demand', but load-following at best. You'd have to add some peaker plants (or storage) into the mix if you wanted to go majority-nuclear as well...
Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power
#368The risks you end up taking on don't make sense for the amount of energy received. Solar, wind, geothermal, and hydro are more than enough to power the world. They're cheaper too. In terms of baseload requirements, batteries are the far safer alternative for transitioning away from fossil fuels. Nuclear power may have been tenable as a solution, even with the heightened risks, if improvements in battery technology we…
The risk people aren't considering is public opinion. It takes about 10 years to build a nuclear power-plant. Historically when have had one major accident every 30 years. Each time an accident have happened, projects have been canceled or put on ice. This mean that if you start planing a power-plant today there is ~33% chance, public opinion will stop it before its completed. One good illustration id the documentary…
Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power
#369Articles like this miss the main point and instead focus on culture war material. There are plenty of sites that would happily accept more nuclear being built, but all other forms of energy have undercut the cost of nuclear. It's no longer cost competitive, and places like China that adopt a "let's try everything and see what works best" approach have heavily pulled back on nuclear. The issues aren't safety, waste, a…
This assumes that larger investment in nuclear won’t yield reduced costs, just as larger investments in solar did.
Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power
#370Earlier quoted context omitted.
Afaik, nuclear energy is more expensive only because it is regulated far beyond what any other form of energy for the same level of risk. Disposal of nuclear waste is a huge expense, but the main waste product generated by natural gas (CO2) gets away scot free despite literally being the cause of what might be our generation's biggest problem. The end-of-life expenses of nuclear plants are included in the cost sheets…
You can't wipe a continent out with the worst case coal plant failure. A reactor going critical and exploding, however "impossible" would do just that. Look at the Saudi plant going up. It is jokingly referred to as "a car with no seatbelts".