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Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

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Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#361

Post by the_local_host »

tinyhouse wrote: post #347
justapassenger wrote: post #309

While he has valid points of how corp life is different from startup, he seems like a horrible, entitled person to work for. General attitude that comes out of it to me, is that your employees growth doesn’t matter, only his vision of product matters. He complains about people being entitled, and at the same time he complains that as CEO of subsidiary of one of the biggest company in the world, he cannot say offensiv…

I think you misinterpreting what he's saying. I didn't get the impression that he claims that employees growth doesn't matter. He's saying that most people optimize for promotion rather than building a better product. That's indeed the wrong thing to optimize for, esp for the company. Not being able to fire people is indeed a big disadvantage. Bad employees are much worse than just not contributing. They make the peo…

But he's not strictly talking about "bad employees"; he explicitly mentions firing people for "the basic reason that you don't need this role any more".

That's not invalid by itself as long as everyone knows that the game is purely transactional. But it isn't fair to expect employee "passion" when their own continued employment is contingent on whether management thinks they're still necessary.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#362

Post by CydeWeys »

gambiting wrote: post #184
slibhb wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they really complained about not getting compensated for buying their own food during lockdown I think "entitled" is a fair descriptor. This is the first time I've read one of these blogs where the author complains about it being "practically impossible to fire someone". To me, that adds an air of authenticity to the complaining. In my experience too, the inability to fire people for reasons other than "this perso…

>>If they really complained about not getting compensated for buying their own food during lockdown I think "entitled" is a fair descriptor. I very much disagree. If you were getting food at work previously, as in - it was clearly your agreed part of compensation - then I would absolutely complain if suddenly I had to buy my own. >> But the flipside of that is that, when there's a deadline, I'm very invested in meeti…

For what it's worth, food in the United States is very clearly never a part of your agreed-upon compensation in the way that health/retirement benefits are; it is a "team-building office perk" offered by the employer. If it were actually part of your compensation, then you'd be taxed on it.

I know it may be easy to misunderstand this, and to think of it as part of your compensation, because in a way it feels like it, but in a real legal sense as currently structured it very definitely is not part of your compensation.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#363

Post by cmrdporcupine »

9 years @ Google, and I too came from a company acquired by Google. (In my case, Google did not keep our product or tech stack around, so.) And yes, I can say many Googlers are entitled. It's a fair descriptor. And the pace of work is slower than a startup. In general.

And I too have many criticisms of Google. But.

Google has entirely different revenue constraints. It can afford an entirely different way of working. That pace allows a more sustainable cadence of development. It can be a more humane place to work, in general.

Google can on the whole accomplish its revenue goals without being a meat grinder. So why be one? I think there is a bit of a problem with this guy's POV where he's come to fetishize the actual process of the making of the sausage versus the sausage itself.

Projects need not be run under insane stress if there's a steady supply of talent and money to make things happen. Google can afford that. Pace will be slower. Perhaps less competitive. But the core business continues to do excellently.

For many of us Google is not an "exciting" place to work. But it's a pretty good job to have and it pays well and gives access to both great benefits and to interesting technology. And that compensation in _most_ people does yield a sense of responsibility for delivery. But maybe not the survival-of-the-fittest-meat-grinder panic that this guy somehow seems to love.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#364

Post by marcus_holmes »

Mauricebranagh wrote: post #274
marcus_holmes wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't read it as that bad - he states it should be a balance. Balancing work and life means if you get the Yoga session at 11am, then you're also OK with getting paged at 11pm to fix server downtime. When I've managed teams, I always held that it's quid-pro-quo. If I want the team to stay late to meet the deadline, then I'm OK with them leaving early to pick the kids up from school (though not on the same day, obv…

At googles scale you would have shift coverage for that shurly

good point - at that scale the "team" includes all the people you'd ever need to cover every eventuality

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#365

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC »

itg wrote: post #24

Another "leader" who complains about employees wanting work life balance and they are extremely entitled. These are the type of managers you want to avoid. I'm sure many Googlers are happy you left.

From the article:

> There are people who are great for a stage of the company and later, do not have the right skills as the company grows. It is not their fault, it is reality.

While at the same time wanting to fire the employee as soon as they don’t need the skill. The commitment is entirely a one way street.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#366

Post by marcus_holmes »

watwut wrote: post #300
marcus_holmes wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read that as "legal got involved and we had a ton of meetings that achieved nothing for our users" rather than "privacy did nothing for our users". I don't think Google "cares about" user privacy. I think they care about minimising any legal risk. These are two very different attitudes.

"we have an extremely long project that consumed many of our best engineers to align our data retention policies and tools to Google" The only way a big company can somehow ensure that all teams are going to follow the privacy or any other policy is to force the teams to "align our data retention policies and tools to Google". This is literally Google having process to ensure some privacy policy and op having issue w…

Again, I read it differently. It sounded more like a pedantic insistence on company-wide protocol rather than a genuine desire to be careful with user data. But I may be being uncharitable.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#367

Post by sergiosgc »

notaslave wrote: post #346
sergiosgc wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me give you the perspective from the other side of the trench: I never ask my employees for overtime, never control their work hours. The typical work week that organically arises out of this is about 35 hours. I would absolutely fire anyone who would close the laptop for the weekend and left a critical operation pending on Friday. It's about work ethics and personal responsibility of the outcome of personal work…

If the company is paying me for 40 hours, why would they expect me to work more? If the 'outcome of my work' is my personal responsibility, I should also be paid based on the outcome-I should also get a cut from whatever profit the company makes with my work. If the company thinks they have the right to my personal life because they pay me for 40 hours, then its slavery. Also, threatening me with firing because I ref…

I don't hire automatons that turn on at 9h and off at 17h. I don't pay by the hour for intelligent work. I pay for results, defined to be achievable on a regular schedule.

I hire intelligent people, treat them as such, and expect intelligent behaviour in return. Part of the expectation is that everyone manages their own time responsibly. If they fail that management and have to work after hours, I do expect them to take the fall. There's no slavery and no mafia involved here; much to the contrary, it's a healthy work environment with historically excellent work/life balance.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#368

Post by carapace »

I worked at the Google campus in MV as a TVC for a while, and one of my first thoughts was "Yeah, this is a baseline for quality of life. If we can get to the point where people live this well, that's a win." I mean, we will still have to contend with the human condition, but at least the reasonable problems are all solved.

To me complaining about "entitlement" just sounds like a kind of mild "Stockholm Syndrome" for primitive conditions.

Googlers may have some issues but I don't feel that their expectations around baseline quality of life are among them. We should all be so fortunate. No really, we should. Let's work on that together.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#369

Post by serverholic »

sneak wrote: post #335
serverholic wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it's interesting that the person I was replying to used the word "privilege" when describing those perks. As if Google was doing this out of the goodness of their heart.

It can be privilege to have a job, any job, that comes with perks like included food, or healthcare, even if those are part of one's negotiated compensation package.

Then you're just asking to be taken advantage of. You are more important than your employer. Therefore you should be looking to extract as much value from your employer as possible.

If you don't think your employer is doing the same then you're just naive. Google isn't catering food out of the goodness of their heart. It's a calculated cost-benefit analysis to attract and retain top talent.

Edit: It's also a tactic to get people to work longer hours.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#370

Post by whycombagator »

> It is practically impossible to fire someone for the basic reason that you don't need this role any more or there is a better person out there or just plain old - you are not doing a great job. This neuters managers and does not lead to great teams, driven by mission, pushing each other to do better.

> I was the weirdo who wanted to push things fast and expected that some level of personal sacrifice when needed. I don't believe long hours are a badge of honor but I also believe that we have to do whatever it takes to win, even if its on a weekend.

> So, why did I leave?

> I did not leave in a confrontational disagreement (which is what anyone who knows me thought would happen, as I have a short fuse...)

From Twitter:

> Noam Bardin, former Waze CEO (2009-21)

He’s clearly a smart guy and I don’t disagree with all his points, but in general it’s sad that there are CEOs/managers out there with short fuses that want to fire old people. Also he wants personal sacrifice & things delivered no matter what. I understand the viewpoint but would likely despise it as an employee.

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