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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#361
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously it’s a personal choice as to what’s important, but the salary difference between the US and EU is still larger than any of the financial benefits to being in the EU. Getting 6 weeks of vacation instead of 3? I’d still rather take the extra $150k. Having to shell out $15k for healthcare each year? I’d still take the extra $150k.

I'm pretty much at the top end of the salary range where I live. I don't make an extra $150,000. I make a sizable amount. But outside of a few niche places and a few niche companies in those places, people aren't making an extra $150,000 in the US.

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#363
This is a pretty simple topic if you have a good understanding of what enabled developers to pull in large comps, and what kinds of employers pay such comps. I comment on comp threads on HN frequently and don't want to rehash my entire advice, but I can illustrate one example that can be generalized to Europe and America.

Consider two hypothetical employers:

Employer 1: - We want to hire only the best. - We expect people to care about the company and act like owners. - We expect people to flex in and out of different roles. - We fire underperformers.

Employer 2: - We state exact technical qualifications for our roles. - We hire anyone who adequately meets the qualifications. - We don't expect people to do anything not in the job description. - We don't expect people to care about the company, it's just a job. - We never fire anyone.

I hope it's clear that you can make a lot more money at #1 than #2. #1 may be a FAANG and #2 may be your state's Motor Vehicles department. I also hope it's clear that #2 sounds very mainstream European in its attitude towards work while #1 oozes American exceptionalism.

In short, there's no way to raise comp without employers competing for talent but that would basically mean a complete change in employer/employee expectations.

So what happens to European developers who are good/aggressive enough to work for a place like #1? They find it in London and New York.

For what it's worth I am a dual EU/US citizen living in NYC, and my previous job took me a lot to our London office which was primarily staffed with European developers who left Europe exactly for the reasons I described.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#364
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of folks here are calling out the lower pay for SWEs in Europe and Canada as a failure - but also praise the low wealth inequality and low income inequality in Europe and Canada. You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money. Well, this is a lot like the housing conversation in the US. "I want my house to go up in value, and be a great investment!" Also: "Why…

I wouldn't call Canadian (or Fr or Se) wealth inequality 'low'. 'Why I can't afford a house', again is more a problem in Fr/De/Se than in US, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_owne...

Home ownership is strongly influenced by culture. Germans are just happier to rent. Buying often doesn't make a lot of sense financially either. It's not much cheaper to buy than to rent and you lose a lot of flexibility. I could afford to buy a house, but I don't want to. That would just tie up a large fraction of my wealth into one fairly risky investment and make it much harder to move when my life changes.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> That does not answer the question. Why should someone's income depend on their output? Why is that the ethically correct outcome? Because anything else is wishful thinking at best and destroys society at worst.

As opposed to the current system, which is...not destroying society?

>> As opposed to the current system, which is...not destroying society?

I guess people can have different definitions of "destroying society."

I grew up in the USSR where you literally lacked physical stuff in your life that people in the rest of the world took for granted decades prior. A huge contributor to that was that people's work was rewarded on a metric other than their productive output, as measured by what society was willing to pay for in the free market.

To put it another way - we need people to produce. And we need them to produce the right stuff. The best system we have to deciding what's right is what other people use their dollars for.

If we paid people on some other metric we'd end up with a lot of bullshit work, no aspirations, and physical shortages.

I am sure your definition differs.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My net salary is just over 1000€ That's really low, even for poorer European countries. Decent middle-level software engineer in, let's say, Ukraine (no offense meant - it is a good country, just isn't one famous for high incomes), easily makes at least 2k (and I say "at least" - that's awfully underpaid). > that means that i'd need anywhere from ~8 to ~14 years to save as much as they could in a year That's a bit…

> That's really low, even for poorer European countries He said net salary. I know a lot of engineers from C schools in mid-size towns in France who are paid less than 2k euro net.

That's still insanely low. With all these people reporting low salaries in constantly thinking where on earth are you when a European startup is hiring talent :D

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#367

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

I graduated with 2 bachelors degrees and a masters degree with no debt through scholarships and grants. I have saved nothing for my children’s education. If they want to attend college, it is on them to pay their way just as it was for me. I’ve told them that I will help a bit during their first year. My company matches my retirement savings up to 5%. I save nothing else for retirement. I should have millions of doll…

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#368
post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or starvation, or being eaten by a grue. People who think being a hunter-gatherer sounds great should go try it, there's nothing stopping them from doing so. They don't because actually, living in civilization with abundant cheap food, clean running hot and cold water, indoor plumbing, heating, air conditioning, and entertainment is great.

> People who think being a hunter-gatherer sounds great should go try it, there's nothing stopping them from doing so. Well, I mean, except property rights and the people that will defend them in most of the places in the planet suitable for human habitation.

Plenty of hunter gatherer tribes still around for the people crazy enough to want to join them

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guy in the video says people played, made art and fucked. Humans are not predators, we're opportunists by evolutionary trait turning hunters rather recently.

And you too can go live in the bush and do all those things until you get a toothache, parasites and lose a few kids to infant mortality.

Depending upon where one is in the world, even in large wilderness areas, the volume of game has decreased significantly from the pre-agricultural era. Still wouldn't trade a more-abundant bush with modernity, but it is interesting to consider the relative conditions that would make it easier historically.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#370
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of folks here are calling out the lower pay for SWEs in Europe and Canada as a failure - but also praise the low wealth inequality and low income inequality in Europe and Canada. You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money. Well, this is a lot like the housing conversation in the US. "I want my house to go up in value, and be a great investment!" Also: "Why…

They pay peanuts then say we need more programmers. They also say managers are really valuable while we have plenty of those. Programming is also a really intense job, pretty much no one can do it for 8 hours straight and managers sit on their ass drinking coffee all day with brief interruption by tasks 85% should have been automated 20 years ago.

> managers sit on their ass drinking coffee all day

You have experience with some really terrible managers. Have a look at other places.

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