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When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

nytimes.com

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Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you've heard 5-10 plausible meanings for "intelligence", and every one of them is heritable, then you can be pretty sure that "intelligence" is heritable even if you're not sure which particular meaning someone is using. And the article says: "on average, psychological traits are extremely heritable, at around 50 per cent." It's hard to argue for a definition of "intelligence" that wouldn't be a psychological trai…

> If you've heard 5-10 plausible meanings for "intelligence", and every one of them is heritable, then you can be pretty sure that "intelligence" is heritable even if you're not sure which particular meaning someone is using. What if you’ve heard definitions for intelligence that aren’t measured by IQ test scores and then someone uses IQ test scores to argue for the heritability of intelligence? > And the article say…

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Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you've heard 5-10 plausible meanings for "intelligence", and every one of them is heritable, then you can be pretty sure that "intelligence" is heritable even if you're not sure which particular meaning someone is using. What if you’ve heard definitions for intelligence that aren’t measured by IQ test scores and then someone uses IQ test scores to argue for the heritability of intelligence? > And the article say…

I'd be skeptical of a definition of intelligence that had no correlation with IQ scores. If you managed to put forth and defend such a definition, then that could turn into a valid objection; but that would then run into the "psychological trait heritability" prior. > Its equally hard to argue for an average of things which are not faithfully represented by numbers. How do you represent, say, extroversion with number…

> I'd be skeptical of a definition of intelligence that had no correlation with IQ scores. If you managed to put forth and defend such a definition, then that could turn into a valid objection; but that would then run into the "psychological trait heritability" prior.

Its hard to measure a correlation between a set of numbers and a set of NaN’s. However the prior here is that 50% of psychological traits are not heritable, so our prior is that we have approximately equal chances of a trait being heritable or not. What is likely is that some aspects of intelligence are heritable and some are not, and if the statistics that indicate heritability are measuring anything, they are measuring that part of intelligence that is measured by tests AND is heritable. Which is obviously poor evidence for those being the only relevant aspects of intelligence.

> It's kind of arbitrary and has a lot of "noise" in it, but on the other hand there is enough signal that it is measuring something real.

The “something real” is “how people respond to tests”, the assertion that “how people respond to tests” is positively correlated with “extraversion” is a claim that needs evidence. Mere assertion is not sufficient.

> If you need to turn it into a binary classification, you choose a cutoff number, which will again be semi-arbitrary and make errors, but again can be good enough to draw useful conclusions.

The results of a research program are more often useful to the person who is credited with conducting the research than they are useful to the person who is concerned with making accurate predictions of the real world phenomena allegedly represented by tests.

> You can then apply that measure to, say, biological siblings who were both adopted, or (best) to identical twins separated at birth vs fraternal twins separated at birth, and see if genetic similarity correlates with similarity of your measure. From that kind of data, you can get a vague idea of heritability.

Yes, you can get a good idea of the heritability of how a person responds to tests. However the program you described does nothing to validate the responses on tests to any real-world phenomena.

> If the thing you're discussing isn't measured by existing tests, fine. If the thing you're discussing has a logical definition and is important, but you think there can be no tests to produce even a vague measure, then I would guess you just haven't tried very hard.

Perhaps one has tried hard enough to realize that the problem is less tractable than you suppose. One could also observe that “intelligence” is socially constructed and does not in fact have a logical definition that is based solely on objective factors.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe if I limited my concept of the 'point' of school to more specifically describe the average incentives driving the average parent in the current decade to send their child through the formal education system, rather than homeschooling? Would you then consider it possible to draw a link between that and a tractable concept of the 'point' of school.

I would probably refer to that as "the point of sending your kid to school". Note that this is different from "the point of running the school the way it's currently run" (which is how I would probably interpret the bare phrase "the point of school"), and also from "the point of maintaining compulsory education laws". It may also be different from "why parents choose to send their kid to school", because parents' per…

I guess a counterexample would be that kids can leave if they want to. They have to be organized, and highly motivated, which is also kind of a measure of how prepared they are to function in the real world. They also have to prove that they have achieved the level of knowledge expected of a graduating high-school student.

Kids can take the California High School Proficiency Exam, leave high school at 16, do two years at a community college, and transfer out to a state school.

I wound up taking a bunch of community college classes at night, my high school accepted the credits, and let me leave a year early.

Only a handful of kids seem to actually follow-through with it, but it's totally doable if you're organized, willing to work, and really want out.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would probably refer to that as "the point of sending your kid to school". Note that this is different from "the point of running the school the way it's currently run" (which is how I would probably interpret the bare phrase "the point of school"), and also from "the point of maintaining compulsory education laws". It may also be different from "why parents choose to send their kid to school", because parents' per…

I guess a counterexample would be that kids can leave if they want to. They have to be organized, and highly motivated, which is also kind of a measure of how prepared they are to function in the real world. They also have to prove that they have achieved the level of knowledge expected of a graduating high-school student. Kids can take the California High School Proficiency Exam, leave high school at 16, do two year…

> Kids can take the California High School Proficiency Exam, leave high school at 16

Yep. Though I didn't do any college after that. I messed around with mathematics and programming for about 5 years, then made a serious effort to find a programming job, and have been working since then.

I didn't know about the CHSPE until 9th grade, though, when my sister told me about it (because she had a friend who used it too). Before then, my impression was that there was no feasible alternative to school. Certainly no one at school mentioned it.

Also, you're not allowed to take the CHSPE until either age 16 or in the second semester of 10th grade. Which strikes me as stupid. Seems to me that, if you manage to pass it at a younger age, then that is a stronger proof that you're smart/hardworking and shouldn't be stuck taking 9th grade or 8th grade or whatever. (I imagine most of my peer group could have passed it in 6th grade; it is really a test of basic minimum competency.)

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess a counterexample would be that kids can leave if they want to. They have to be organized, and highly motivated, which is also kind of a measure of how prepared they are to function in the real world. They also have to prove that they have achieved the level of knowledge expected of a graduating high-school student. Kids can take the California High School Proficiency Exam, leave high school at 16, do two year…

> Kids can take the California High School Proficiency Exam, leave high school at 16 Yep. Though I didn't do any college after that. I messed around with mathematics and programming for about 5 years, then made a serious effort to find a programming job, and have been working since then. I didn't know about the CHSPE until 9th grade, though, when my sister told me about it (because she had a friend who used it too).…

I personally wasn't as intrinsically motivated to pursue a given field. I just wanted to get out and do something more interesting, discover the real world, and explore career options. I picked up Morris Kline's Calc, aaaaand then I put it back down and signed up for a class.

What would you attribute your deep intrinsic motivation to? It's admirable.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#366
Here are two anecdotes from my life which oughta make you think about public schools.

1) I was born in USSR, in what is now Ukraine. I finished 5th grade there, in 1992. I skipped 4th grade, because of system conversion to 11-year system. I went to average public school and was a B (4) student. I moved to the U.S. and went to 6th grade in an average middle school. I coasted through 6th, 7th, and 8th grades on what I learned in my first four years of schooling. Only in high school did I see anything new math-wise.

2) In high school, I developed nearsightedness, I got a computer when I moved to U.S. In 10th grade, I started needing glasses, and I got behind in Physics class because I couldn't see the board. Eventually, my parents found out I needed glasses, and I got glasses. But I was about 3 months behind in Physics. So my dad sat down with me, after a day of work, and tutored me in Physics for probably an hour a night. Within 1-2 weeks, I was fully caught up on 3 months of "Magnet" high school physics.

Whenever you try to scale something up to millions, quality almost inevitably drops significantly.

Imagine the difference between a child getting the full 6 hours a day of public school versus just 2 hours a day of focused tutoring? The difference would be night and day.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#367

I was homeschooled until the age of around 10, and then my family adopted a new approach called "lifestyle of learning", which is just another way of saying "unschooling". Basically, I was allowed to skip schoolwork, as long as I was doing something productive. I hated schoolwork, so I started spending all my spare time tinkering with stuff on the computer. I wasn't allowed to play video games (since they aren't prod…

I've noticed this with my son who has an ADHD diagnosis. Pre-covid I constantly heard from school, that he was not paying attention, getting distracted. But since Covid, his output has been phenomenal - his reading/math has improved, he does really well one on one, we have a nanny working with him,. And I've never seen him happier. I know homeschool would benefit him immensely in the long run from an intellectual sta…

> but am afraid that he will miss out on all the social aspects

Biggest boogeyman ever.

Just make sure he has a few kids he can maitain contact with an be sociable in clubs or in the neighborhood

All the "social aspects" you get from school is basically a bunch of kids you have no controll over, having a disproportionate effect on the moral and emotional growth, or stunting, of your child. And then add all the trauma burntout teachers can generate...

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#368
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say for most students, the vast majority of time they spend in school, they're not learning anything. The content of curriculums are usually quite short and can be crammed in a few weeks by a dedicated and intelligent enough student. For students that need more time, they often disengage anyway and all the time in the world won't help them learn using the same techniques. I used to be a math teacher, and when a s…

> scrap classes and just divide up my hours on 1-1 sessions with every student for greater efficiency. If done right, that could be one of the best and biggest revolutions in education. It would be amazing if there was a whole school/system doing it.

I think we know how to solve all education problems technically. It's just that the solutions are impractical. Sometimes personalized (expensive management) or require a smart and quick thinking teacher which doesn't scale well, or require hard work doing preparation which teachers don't have the time, motivation, or skill to do, or they are simply effective and leave the kids with nowhere to go while their parents are at work.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kids can take the California High School Proficiency Exam, leave high school at 16 Yep. Though I didn't do any college after that. I messed around with mathematics and programming for about 5 years, then made a serious effort to find a programming job, and have been working since then. I didn't know about the CHSPE until 9th grade, though, when my sister told me about it (because she had a friend who used it too).…

I personally wasn't as intrinsically motivated to pursue a given field. I just wanted to get out and do something more interesting, discover the real world, and explore career options. I picked up Morris Kline's Calc, aaaaand then I put it back down and signed up for a class. What would you attribute your deep intrinsic motivation to? It's admirable.

Thank you, let's see. One part is probably that I was brought up to admire great scientists—my dad gave me popular science books by Stephen Hawking ("The Universe in a Nutshell" in particular) at a young age, and some Feynman books, and such. (I remember "Black Holes, Wormholes, and Time Machines" by Jim al-Khalili from the library.) For a long time I figured I should become such a scientist myself.

Another is probably high self-opinion and wanting to prove I was the best. In elementary school, I entered the chess club; there was a five-week tournament (one game per week), and I studied chess books my mom gave me and by the end of the tournament was the strongest player in the school. (I only tied for first place in that tournament, but I had improved enough by the end that I believe I won all subsequent rematches against the guy I lost my first game to.) Upon entering middle school, I took a Mathcounts test to determine who would be on the school team, and I got the highest score in the school (which was actually kind of a fluke, because I had a friend who generally outperformed me at arithmetic-based contests and did so at the actual Mathcounts events—but I tended to beat him at proof contests later on). I did lots of math contests, and generally did "rather well". The pinnacle of that was qualifying for the math olympiad camp in 9th grade, from which the U.S. International Math Olympiad team is selected (although people below 12th grade have a lower bar, and aren't in the running for the team unless they've met the higher bar; my achievement isn't that impressive). So my self-opinion had some justification.

Regarding calculus textbooks, in the summer after 7th grade I went to one of my sisters and said, "You know, I've heard of this thing called calculus, but I don't know what it is"; she gave me my oldest sister's calculus textbook (Ostebee and Zorn), and I read through chapters, and did problems out of the the chapters until I figured I understood it, and moved onto the next chapter. (I didn't go through all the chapters—towards the end it did multidimensional stuff that just got boring.) With this as my sole calculus education, I later chose to take a calculus round of a math contest, and got a "decent" score (IIRC it might have been in the top 10%). :-)

So, for quite a long time, I wasn't actually sure that I'd ever met anyone who was smarter than me. (My abovementioned friend was certainly close, and was better at some things.) At the math olympiad camp, I did meet people who were clearly significantly better than me at math contests. I figured that a certain amount of that was due to drilling, which was something I didn't do (I mean, I went to math club and did whatever they put in front of me, but I didn't practice contests at home), which gave me a way to suspect that I might still be at least as smart as them. :-) I knew this was a self-serving line of thought, but I figured that, as long as I knew it was specious, it was harmless to indulge it and let it motivate me. I think Colin Percival is the clearest example of someone reasonably close to my age that I'd have to bow down to. (Though even then, if my education had been properly arranged, instead of wasting most of my K-10 years... Well, that is an experiment I hope to carry out multiple times in the next generation.)

The olympiad camp actually gave worksheets that they recommended we do throughout the year. I did not want to pursue that, or pure math in general (although I thought I was good, I didn't think I had a good chance of, say, proving the Riemann hypothesis, and anything less than that didn't seem worth it), and refocused on computer science. (I also had discovered Paul Graham's essays around 8th grade, Scheme in 9th grade, and took an AP CS class in 10th grade, whose curriculum included SICP—yeah, that teacher was pretty cool.) After leaving school, I did over 100 Project Euler problems, and did other "programming for math" stuff, although I drifted towards pure programming stuff (implementing languages, specifically).

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not some kind of work-maniac like Isaac Newton. I've spent plenty of time playing computer games, and still do. But I have some reflexes that have served me well. (1) Whatever you're doing, do it well. If you're doing it well, see if you can do it even better. (2) Keep an eye out for opportunities to practice your skills. When I got irritated at repetitive Youtube comments, I used curl/egrep/sed/sort/uniq to count how many of them matched a particular format. When I felt frustrated about limitations in EV Nova or Civilization II or other games, I did some work towards reimplementing them myself—which, in the case of EV Nova, led me down a rabbit hole of researching real-time garbage collection, which occupied my productive efforts for some years. When I set an alarm clock, it is a shell command of the following form:

  ~> sleep (math "3600 * 8 - 600"); pelimusa
where "pelimusa" is a command that sets the computer volume (in case I muted it) and then plays a song[1] in a loop until I control-C it. (3) You should know how to do everything. If there's something you don't know how to do, it should irritate you a little or hurt your pride. (4) Don't do unnecessarily stupid things. Being smart means you can do very stupid things (which other people wouldn't even try, or think to try), and if this actually leads you to cause permanent damage to yourself or other terrible outcomes, then you really weren't smart in the ways that mattered, which is unacceptable.

I was in the weeds of implementing my idealized real-time GC in x64 assembly (which may have been a bad idea, but I had my reasons, and I didn't have anyone whose opinion I trusted advising me against it; at least I learned a lot), and eventually my family started putting pressure on me to start earning money. So I did. I got a referral to Google—which turned me down, by the way, which... lowered my opinion of them :-P—and then to a few other places. I've been working at a medium-sized Silicon Valley tech company since then.

Today, in my job, the things that motivate me are pride, curiosity, and lolz. Pride could be summarized as proving to myself that I'm the best (however I might choose to define it), and that those who have invested in me made the right choice. Curiosity is self-explanatory. Lolz is when I use absurd means (like overwriting executables in /usr, or piping "yes" into installation programs, or running "kill -STOP; kill -CONT" in a loop to slow down a program) because they're actually a very effective and quick path to what I want.

Beyond my job, I want to fix things for future generations, perhaps to prove that I'm right that there was a better way. John Holt tried to reform school, ran into the cancer (as well as the astonishingly common view that children are no damn good), and concluded you had to work outside school. Seems about right to me.

Civilization II has taught me that exponential growth is the most powerful strategy ever. If I can create several people like me, each of whom creates several more, and so on, then that can achieve a lot more than I might do myself. (I am being 70% serious.) Even if they're not as smart, raising them properly (i.e. no goddamn school, plus find them some cognitive peers, and generally have an intellectually rich household) may more than make up for that: the improved education and non-isolation (my social development was certainly hampered by growing up 99% around kids I couldn't relate to, which may have made the difference in my squandering some opportunities) and possibly improved motivation (having 6+ hours a day forcibly wasted is very demotivating). In the worst case, they'll still carry my genes and can try again with the next generation.

I encourage smart and motivated people to try this too. At some point we may figure out how to directly increase intelligence (that would be one of the projects I would hope a kid of mine tackles); for now, the most obviously workable approach is to find a suitable genius (with no severe mental health or personality issues) who is willing to give you their genetic material. That may take the form of marrying them, if you're lucky. Once you have the kids (plural; one of the easiest ways to have peers is to have them at home, although you can't guarantee they'll be friends), the default approach of unschooling seems best: buy good books and intellectually stimulating toys, help them meet friends, maybe experiment with 1:1 tutoring if you have the resources and they like it, support them in activities they seem interested in, but fundamentally just make sure they are fed and watered and loved, and trust to their natural curiosity and to luck. (There is going to be a large luck component. Another reason to have multiple kids.)

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKs5mkEpWuU

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not making a counterargument. The operating word is “masses”. 1-on-1 doesn’t scale. The political reality may be that support for schooling would crater if the report were widely known, but the alternative isn’t realistically “modern schools” vs. “1-on-1 tutoring”, but rather “modern schools” vs. “nothing”, or, optimistically, “modern schools” vs. “something not yet invented”.

It doesn't have to scale, it just has to be possible. I would argue that it is, especially given how many people are in jobs that just don't matter.

You are casually suggesting restructuring the entire economy while minimizing a relatively small problem involved in that, which is deciding who has access to education and how.
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