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I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

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361–369 of 369 posts

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#361

Wow. I am the author of this email. I have no idea how it resurfaced after 5 years, I was only made aware of this when a friend emailed me the HN link. The sad thing is it was not just my company which was targeted, but Apple removed this entire product category. We never knew the real reason why, or if it was bigger than just a random app reviewer trying to apply Apple policy, until May 2019. That's when Bloomberg i…

Not trying to start a flame war, but as an Android user, I often hear things from Apple users along the lines of what you said "I picked up an Android phone and after 5 mins I couldn't handle how they completely missed delighting the user over and over again". It all sounds rather wishy-washy and ambiguous to me, do you mind to elaborate and give some examples? In all fairness, I tried out the demo units of Iphones a…

On Android, scrolling to top|bottom doesn't bounce back into final position. Rather, it feels like a lifeless, cheap plastic scroll bar that thuds into place with no intuitiveness.

I know this seems completely pointless and useless, but.. this same disregard for UX is repeated in other major ways. Such as allowing less-than-60fps scrolling on modern phones. Last time I used Android was 2016 or so, and the inefficient animations are probably less noticeable now, but I bet it's still inefficient.

Everything just seems way more thought out and well executed on iOS.

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#362
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bummer! So, what platform(s) are you developing for nowadays?

No longer in the app recommendation game (too bad that was my passion. The same team who built AppAdvice has now created a B2B company helping businesses annoyomize personal documents: https://redacted.ai

Has this letter be anonymized with readacted.ai? :D

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, for that reason I will never use any google products for my businesses. The risk of being destroyed overnight and without any possible appeal is just too high.

Curious do you just stick with web apps or just don't do any sort of business that requires it? I was thinking about a career shift into apps or web apps, leaning towards web actually because I do have a little bit of "full stack" experience on simple web applications/databases in the embedded sphere.

Yes I now focus on business ideas that cannot be blocked/banned/rejected ... Since 2011 I had 4 startups that where killed by either google, apple, Facebook and YouTube. In 2016 I decided to avoid them as much as possible and never rely on third parties, ... Yes this is discarding a lot of good business ideas ... But your business then cannot be killed by a third party at any time

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#364

I mean, there’s a point to be made about how much monopoly power Apple holds, and it’s now clear these questions weren’t asked until now because lawmakers were really sweet on the maker of their shiny iPhone - but this letter ain’t it. The author is grovelling to the point of it being honestly pitiful. The amount of derogatory references to the web and Android also make it really hard for me not to question the motiv…

> the lesson to be learned here is that if your business depends exclusively on another company for its survival then

That's easy to say now 10 years later, when you can look back at history.

But not equally obvious in the beginning when the app stores had just appeared.

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#365
post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Preventing people using your software on other hardware is not anti-competitive. It doesn’t do anything to prevent others from developing their own hardware or software. It’s not as if Apple has a monopoly on good operating systems or developers. Apple’s software isn’t magic. It’s just well designed and managed relative to the competition. There is no reason it can’t be bettered, except that nobody is trying. As far…

> Preventing people using your software on other hardware is not anti-competitive. ... It doesn’t do anything to prevent others from developing their own hardware or software. Actually, since they also provide the hardware, in the truest sense of the word, it is. They are preventing alternative hardware for their software (they've sued over this), and preventing alternative software on their hardware. No competition…

You say it’s ‘ridiculous’ for Apple to have money in case they need to rebuild their supply chains.

Ok, what do you think they should do if China starts to interrupt their manufacturing there?

I’m saying the risk is obviously real, and that it’s obviously reasonable for them to make contingencies.

What would you do in their situation, and how much would it cost?

The rest of your argument is based on the idea that the only way to compete with Apple is by using either their software, or their hardware.

That seems like an extraordinarily claim, which you need to justify.

At face value it is obviously false given that most phones do not use Apple’s software or hardware.

As for the comment about VC. I didn’t just say VC. I listed a range of people who might be interested in investing in competitors to Apple.

It seems like a weird argument to suggest here on Hacker news, that competing with the world’s largest corporations shouldn’t require investment.

This is a very bizarre assertion.

I’d seriously like to live in a world where it was true - e.g. where we had UBI and hackers could get together to collaborate on an open solution without having to make a living. I’m not saying this as a rhetorical maneuver. I am quite serious.

However, solving that problem has nothing to do with Apple.

As for the ‘model’ question. What you are talking about - where there is competition at every level of the stack, is known as a modular approach.

Generally modularity is possible when the components are commodities. People agree on standards and then innovate in other areas.

If we want the competitive environment you are proposing, what we are talking about is a modular approach to personal computing.

Apple’s approach is an integrated one, where modularity is not part of their offering. M

One way to attempt a modular environment would be to seize control of apple and have a committee dictate how they open up parts of their system to competition.

This is what you are proposing.

Another way would be for a group of people who believe that a modular approach would yield better consumer products to create a modular platform.

I believe that this is what Google originally wanted to do with Android.

The reason they failed and reversed course towards an integrated approach is that we simply are not at the stage where software can be treated as a commodity.

The pace of change in how we build software is still rapid.

I agree with you that a modular landscape might potentially be better, but I believe that we can only know if it is by building a modular platform that produces better consumer experiences than the integrated ones.

Again, I don’t think this has anything to do with Apple.

I see no reason why for example, WASM couldn’t be a vehicle for a more modern, modular approach to software creation.

Of course you can argue that Apple will hobble it, but that doesn’t matter over time. Their platform will become expensive to develop for compared to the others, and stop being people’s first choice.

If it yields a faster path to better software, the open platform will win. We just need to build it.

But if we just dismantle Apple by force, it will not.

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#366
post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Preventing people using your software on other hardware is not anti-competitive. ... It doesn’t do anything to prevent others from developing their own hardware or software. Actually, since they also provide the hardware, in the truest sense of the word, it is. They are preventing alternative hardware for their software (they've sued over this), and preventing alternative software on their hardware. No competition…

You say it’s ‘ridiculous’ for Apple to have money in case they need to rebuild their supply chains. Ok, what do you think they should do if China starts to interrupt their manufacturing there? I’m saying the risk is obviously real, and that it’s obviously reasonable for them to make contingencies. What would you do in their situation, and how much would it cost? The rest of your argument is based on the idea that the…

> You say it’s ‘ridiculous’ for Apple to have money in case they need to rebuild their supply chains.

> Ok, what do you think they should do if China starts to interrupt their manufacturing there?

Choose another manufacturer in a different nation? China is not the only one on the market. Saving up enough monety to create a new one from scratch instead of finding a new one "just in case" is ridiculous. That's like you renting and saving up enough money to buy a house "just in case" your landlord evicts you, even though you're perfectly happy renting. There are better uses for that money than sitting as a contingency plan you're better off not doing anyway even if that case happens.

> The rest of your argument is based on the idea that the only way to compete with Apple is by using either their software, or their hardware.

No, my argument is based on the fact the only way to compete with Apple is on the whole platform level, because they've erected barriers to make it impossible to do otherwise.

You can't create better hardware for Apple OS software. You can't create a better OS for Apple hardware. You can't create a new App store for their OS, and you can't even compete on a specific App they don't want you to. You can compete on these specific items of their stack only if they allow you to, and at this point that means you can create apps. Usually. Hopefully.

> Generally modularity is possible when the components are commodities. People agree on standards and then innovate in other areas.

It doesn't take modularity to allow competition. I can buy a Ford automobile and put another engine in it. Because I can do that, I can sell engines that work in Fords. I can also buy Fords and alter them with new engines, and any other new parts I want, and then re-sell them. This is how Shelby American created the first Shelby Mustangs.

If Ford were to take a page from Apple's book, they would both create custom screw and bolt sets for all items in the car, and only sell under a contract that says you aren't allowed to disassemble any parts they don't give explicit permission to, and you're only allowed to use certified Ford parts, except they can't because those are consumer rights protected under law.

> One way to attempt a modular environment would be to seize control of apple and have a committee dictate how they open up parts of their system to competition.

> This is what you are proposing.

No, I'm really just proposing that consumers have more rights over the devices and software they buy. That gets tricky because we don't "buy" our software anymore, we lease it, but we sure as hell buy our hardware, so why is it okay for the manufacturer to use a technical block to thwart a right we are already guaranteed under law?

> I agree with you that a modular landscape might potentially be better, but I believe that we can only know if it is by building a modular platform that produces better consumer experiences than the integrated ones.

Every one of these platforms is already modular, because that's the only way we know how to build software this large and complex. Modularity is not the problem, it's the coordinating updates between components and explaining of the interfaces Apple doesn't want to deal with, because it allows them to provide a smoother user experience. That's nice, but Apple wanting something does not, IMO, excuse the anti-competitive practices used to achieve it. They could easily sign all the components they provide and always show whether you're running official or non-official components not care at all about third parties knowing how to interface with them, and as long as they didn't actively prevent third parties, we'd still be a thousand times better off than we are with regards to choice and user control.

> I see no reason why for example, WASM couldn’t be a vehicle for a more modern, modular approach to software creation.

WASM runs in the browser, iOS only allows for one browser runtime, so they control what capabilities are allowed from WASM code. Again, everything is locked down from Apple as much as they want. They could, arbitrarily, decide tomorrow that only WASM signed by an Apple Developer account and certified by them would run in Safari, and nobody could do a thing about it. Will they? Very unlikely, but the fact there's absolutely no user recourse in that case means WASM fundamentally is no different than something from the App store, even if right now it seems less constrained in some ways and more constrained in others.

> But if we just dismantle Apple by force, it will not.

Nobody is saying dismantle Apple. They would survive just fine if they were forces to provide a mechanism to allow a different App store, or a new OS on their hardware. Since only a very small amount of people would do so, the only difference is they would be slightly less profitable, which is still immensely profitable.

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#367

I mean, there’s a point to be made about how much monopoly power Apple holds, and it’s now clear these questions weren’t asked until now because lawmakers were really sweet on the maker of their shiny iPhone - but this letter ain’t it. The author is grovelling to the point of it being honestly pitiful. The amount of derogatory references to the web and Android also make it really hard for me not to question the motiv…

The podcast you mentioned sounds interesting. Could you please link it?

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you've really had it rough. I guess the lesson to all of us is to never rely on third-party platforms as much as possible

Even if you develop for bare metal, you’re at the mercy of hardware manufacturers, who sometimes change specs without warnings. Windows and Linux are third-party platforms too. I mostly develop for these two platforms (been doing for couple decades now), and never had the unfortunate experience of GP.

OK, so that's a good argument for not tying your product to the "bare-metal" / Win32 / (specific distro?) APIs, and using something higher level and portable. Which, frankly, everybody should be doing anyway, if you're not in the business of writing kernel drivers.

Re: I fear App Review is getting too powerful (2015) [pdf]

#369
post #236
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea behind this ban (could be wrong) is that Apple wants to be the main (only?) app-based curator of apps. It lets them control the narrative and flow of money.

It becomes a lot harder to justify a 30% cut should 3rd party apps drive the majority of downloads.

Presumably the 3rd parties would want a referral / affiliate fee, which would come out of the 30%. That seems more than fair -- this is clearly about control, not money.
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