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Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

timjrobinson.com

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Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#361

Post by ineedasername »

alex_young wrote: post #114

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

I don't see how a carbon tax on its own solves any environmental issue. By itself it just means it costs more to buy things without changing how they are actually produced & that production's environmental impact. A carbon tax might be used for remediation after the fact, which isn't as effective, but such remediation funding would leave little room to fund UBI.

If you want the costs of products to "bake in" environmental costs, it needs to be done at the production stage. Producers need to either spend more money on reducing emissions or more money on remediating their environmental impact, or both, which raises product prices instead of very indirect tax. Trying to do it as a carbon tax doesn't offer producers any reason to change.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#362

Post by akamoonknight »

This isn't a fully formed idea, but it kind of feels like even the _option_ for UBI is based off the exploitation inherent to capitalism. The statement in the article: "Because we all become wealthier when goods are produced by those most efficient at making them" reads to me more as 'we become wealthier when we offload work to the nations that are more willing to take advantage of their people by treating them worse' Of course these things are complex topics, but it feels like one of the reasons for recent explosive wealth is the offloading of negative externalities. I've never really thought this through, but maybe UBI is just an extension of that. I know this isn't strictly a US topic, but I wonder if it's even valid to think about UBI in a US-centric way or if it has to become a global concept, otherwise it feels like just another way that advanced economies siphon wealth out of developing nations/disenfranchised people.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#363

Post by tornato7 »

ardit33 wrote: post #201
alex_young wrote: post #114

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

A carbon tax is essentially a sales tax... for high carbon products. i.e. polluting cars, red meat, airplane travel, etc... etc... The problem with 'sales tax' is that are regressive. You are essentially taxing the millionaire and the homeless guy with the same rate.

But the billionaire probably buys a lot more stuff... And if he doesn't, that's a good thing.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#365

Post by thephyber »

I find one of the more interesting benefits of UBI that stay-at-home-moms would be paid at least something compared to the status quo nothing-unless-your-company-has-really-great-benefits.

Alternatively, if the UBI pays for children, that subsidy could help more moms go to work by effectively subsidizing day-care.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#366

Post by MuffinFlavored »

Aerroon wrote: post #166
alex_young wrote: post #114

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

I don't see how this would really work. A carbon tax in an ideal situation is just a consumption tax. This means that it's the consumer that pays it. Rich people don't eat more food nor do they drive dozens of cars at once. If we want this carbon tax to offset our greenhouse emissions then that means it will necessarily disproportionately impact poor people. And then you want to turn around and pay that money back to…

why can’t we do a flat tax? why is the answer always “let’s tax the rich more” off rip?

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#367

Post by BlahGod420 »

treyfitty wrote: post #272

There are a lot of people here dissenting on the idea of UBI on the premise that they find meaning in work, and to take the incentive to work away will lead others (themselves included) not to have meaning in life. I’ve taken a year off of work to start a business that failed and spent the past few months hanging out with my kids. At first, my stress levels were high because daycares were shut down and I was panickin…

> No way will I toil for someone else if I had a choice.

You might collaborate, however.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#368

Post by [deleted] »

treyfitty wrote: post #272

There are a lot of people here dissenting on the idea of UBI on the premise that they find meaning in work, and to take the incentive to work away will lead others (themselves included) not to have meaning in life. I’ve taken a year off of work to start a business that failed and spent the past few months hanging out with my kids. At first, my stress levels were high because daycares were shut down and I was panickin…

[deleted]

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#369

Post by d3nj4l »

prostoalex wrote: post #344
treyfitty wrote: post #272

There are a lot of people here dissenting on the idea of UBI on the premise that they find meaning in work, and to take the incentive to work away will lead others (themselves included) not to have meaning in life. I’ve taken a year off of work to start a business that failed and spent the past few months hanging out with my kids. At first, my stress levels were high because daycares were shut down and I was panickin…

> At first, my stress levels were high because daycares were shut down and I was panicking about my business. When I accepted the fate of my business, I chilled out and just hung out with my kids. You might be in the minority of people with mature enough emotional response and ability to deal with stress. What would happen if you had an existing alcohol/opiate/etc addiction? It seems that UBI provides few precautions…

You can read about the results of UBI experiments in Finland and Canada:

Finland: https://www.kela.fi/web/en/news-archive/-/asset_publisher/lN...

Canada: https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200624-canadas-forgot...

This sentence in the BBC article above is great:

> In particular, Forget was struck by the improvements in health outcomes over the four years. There was an 8.5% decline in hospitalisations – primarily because there were fewer alcohol-related accidents and hospitalisations due to mental health issues – and a reduction in visits to family physicians.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#370

Post by 3131s »

jtlienwis wrote: post #258

I am opposed to UBI. I want smart people to have more money. I want less smart people to have less money, provided they have enough to live on. A smart person might invest in books, study and self improvement. Then those industries that create these will be stimulated. That is what you want. Less smart people might spend their money on lottery tickets, junk food, booze etc. Those industries would be stimulated by UBI…

You are basing your opinion on your "visions" of what may have resulted from some state lottery? What does this even have to do with a UBI?
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