How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change • Hacker News Board

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#361

Post by js8 » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 2:05 AM UTC

systemvoltage wrote: post #55

kajumix wrote: post #35

"I’ve heard some suggest that the recurrent problem of racial bias in our criminal justice system proves that only protests and direct action can bring about change, and that voting and participation in electoral politics is a waste of time. I couldn’t disagree more. The point of protest is to raise public awareness... But eventually, aspirations have to be translated into specific laws and institutional practices —…

One big problem is that the elected after being elected, choose to not follow or dilute those promises. There is no accountability. So time and again, democracy fails as they just change their minds after being elected. There is this "damping" factor like a mechanical system, that takes the energy out of the people's hands and dampens it with lobbying, dishonesty, unaccountability and complete neglect for public inte…

> One big problem is that the elected after being elected, choose to not follow or dilute those promises. There is no accountability. So time and again, democracy fails as they just change their minds after being elected.

One solution to this is more direct democracy. When people can propose initiatives and vote on them in referendums, it is harder for politicians to ignore that agenda. This works pretty well in Switzerland.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#362

Post by austincheney » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 2:06 AM UTC

yaj54 wrote: post #346

standardUser wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Noise and chaos gets heard. You know what gets completely ignored in this country? Peaceful protest. The actions of the last week are far, far more likely to result in change than any mass protest. Just look at the anti-Iraq war protests - the largest protests in US history held in dozens of cities over months and accomplished precisely nothing at all. Civil rights, gay rights, women's right were all won with a lot m…

@austincheney - Speaking as an American -- those in this country with the privilege of freedom have it because people have fought and died for it [0]. There actually aren't very many examples of people that have basic freedoms that have not at some point fought for it. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War

I am aware more than most. I am a warrant officer in the US Army entering my 5th overseas deployment.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#363

Post by mistermann » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 2:07 AM UTC

mydongle wrote: post #328

Consultant32452 wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you that it seems the people sparking the looting/fires/etc seem to be mostly white. I just don't think that will matter in the minds of the average person who barely watches the news. To the extent that they are watching anything, they will see tons of videos of black people committing crimes on social media.

What makes you believe that the looters are mostly white? I mean, the people you are talking against, they have all the video evidence they need of black people and others looting and causing destruction that they need. What do you have? I'd really like to see some. I've been having some cognitive dissonance lately. Some portions of the media are telling me that the looters are white supremacists, but unless there ar…

Small but important distinction: the people sparking the looting/fires/etc seem to be mostly white.

And the only place you're going to have a chance to see the truth on this is in conspiracy forums and on Twitter. How trustworthy is it? Well, it is typically video footage, and it is highly unlikely to be coordinated reporting, so judge for yourself how seriously you want to trust it. But I have watched and read lots on this, and anything I have seen is that the people stirring up shit and instigating violence or destruction, are white, and the people trying to stop them verbally or physically, are black or white.

Here is a good livestream that typically shows 5 to 9 streams simultaneously, depending on where the action is. This is as close to knowing reality as you are going to get. If you watch the "trustworthy" news media, you are maybe going to get some very small amount of truth, but you also run a very big chance of getting a framed version of reality that is often the opposite of what is true.

Look for yourself, think for yourself. Do not outsource these things to authorities who have well demonstrated that they are untrustworthy.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#364

Post by selectodude » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 2:13 AM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #280

freeone3000 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voting hasn't worked. Oakland PD still has half of its budget to brutality complaints. It's been 7 years since the movement started and 66 years since voting was allowed for Black people. Voting isn't going to change anything. "Broad agreement" by who, exactly? I keep seeing videos of cops smashing windows then blaming it on protestors, cops attacking crowds with tear gas and less-lethal rounds, and now a shooting of…

> Voting hasn't worked. Oakland PD still has half of its budget to brutality complaints. It's been 7 years since the movement started and 66 years since voting was allowed for Black people. Voting isn't going to change anything. Really, honestly, think about this rationale and think about what it would look like if people with different views than you applied this line of reasoning. Would you be okay with anti-aborti…

Are you saying they haven't? The DOJ considers anti-abortion activists domestic terrorists and treats them as such.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#365

Post by sacred_numbers » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 2:15 AM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #151

vzidex wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>do not believe that it actually exists on the moment Precisely. People have been voting and non-violently protesting for decades, and it hasn't worked.

People haven't been voting, which is why it hasn't worked.

Let's look at the subset of people that vote. If they consistently vote and encourage others to vote, and yet their candidates never win, they are effectively powerless. For them it is no different than living under a monarchy, except for the vague hope that maybe eventually their candidates will win and their policies enacted. Eventually that vague hope makes things even more painful, since they know that their government will never represent them, despite them theoretically having the power to decide their leaders. Either they will resent the system or they will resent their neighbors who either vote for the opposition or don't vote.

Think about all of the left-wing voters in a very Red congressional district or state. Think of all the right wing voters in a very Blue district or state. They are not officially disenfranchised, but their vote doesn't really matter either, so why vote at all? The equation changes somewhat for swing states/districts, but even then it's often a lesser of two evils choice, rather than any major progression towards policy goals. There are some democracies that mitigate some of these issues (getting rid of the electoral college and first past the post would go a long way in the US), but in general democracy leaves a lot of people dissatisfied.

If your major disagreement with the status quo is the tax rate, or certain business regulations, your dissatisfaction with the democratic process is manageable. If your major disagreement with the status quo is police brutality and injustice that make your life miserable, then what is the downside to rioting and destruction? Maybe there's only a tiny chance that something good will come out of it, but it's better than a zero percent chance of enacting change by continuing to vote and lose elections.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#366

Post by tareqak » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 2:21 AM UTC

nyhc99 wrote: post #352

tareqak wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally think body camera footage should be public. I would even go as far to say security cameras owned by public institutions should also be public. I think the answer to “who watchers the watchers?” should be a group of trustworthy people beyond reproach, but the absence of such a group necessitates that this responsibility fall upon the public at large [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quis_custodiet_ip…

I don't know about you, but I don't really want my various encounters with the police to be broadcast to the public. They would need to algorithmically blur out all of our faces or something in order to make that palatable.

I share the same discomfort at the idea, but I think if everyone is subject to the exact same treatment, then it should be a lot less so. I would not be opposed to algorithmic blurring as long as the raw, unedited footage remains available via system of approved requests with the appropriate access controls.

For what it is worth, I have not been questioned by a police officer for something I did or did not do. I do think that me having the mindset that I am always being watched in public helps me better police myself, so I think the more obvious and ever-present version might instill a similar feeling in others.

At the same time, I can see that having this footage available has a slippery-slope effect when it comes to privacy and authoritarian control. However, this issue of groups of people using technology to control or manipulate others is fundamentally a non-technical issue to me because these people exist irrespective of that technology's existence.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#367

Post by selectodude » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 2:25 AM UTC

username90 wrote: post #248

mmastrac wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective. The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is…

> but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. Why, is there evidence of this? It isn't very obvious to me that he wouldn't get arrested and charged otherwise, this case is way clearer than any other controversial police killing I've seen.

The state's autopsy claimed he died of hypertension and coronary artery disease. It never mentioned anything about asphyxiation and went on to speculate about how he may have been on drugs. The police also claimed at the time that he was resisting arrest. The police were fired after the video was released. The cop that murdered him had eighteen prior complaints, none of which were followed up on. Why do we assume #19 would be the one without the video and the protests?

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#368

Post by freeone3000 » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 2:31 AM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #280

freeone3000 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voting hasn't worked. Oakland PD still has half of its budget to brutality complaints. It's been 7 years since the movement started and 66 years since voting was allowed for Black people. Voting isn't going to change anything. "Broad agreement" by who, exactly? I keep seeing videos of cops smashing windows then blaming it on protestors, cops attacking crowds with tear gas and less-lethal rounds, and now a shooting of…

> Voting hasn't worked. Oakland PD still has half of its budget to brutality complaints. It's been 7 years since the movement started and 66 years since voting was allowed for Black people. Voting isn't going to change anything. Really, honestly, think about this rationale and think about what it would look like if people with different views than you applied this line of reasoning. Would you be okay with anti-aborti…

No, for two reasons:

First, no one is forcing you to have an abortion you don't want. Anti-abortion activity is for the sake of others, and never yourself. This makes it no less noble of an endeavor for your personal beliefs, but since other people having abortions don't actually affect you one wit, it's hard to see abortion as having the same urgency as police brutality, where people at random are dying daily, and anybody could be the next target.

Second, because their voices are being heard. Between the banning of funding for Planned Parenthood domestically as well as internationally, and continued restrictions to constructively ban abortion in several states, it's clear that progress is being made, so voting is working. This is not clear at all for victims of police violence, where claims have been increasing over time, not decreasing.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#369

Post by sk5t » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 2:41 AM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #350

sk5t wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I owned a company and the people I hired to manage it were playing games like this Imagine that you get to hire 5 people to run the company on your behalf, and four other directors each also hire 5 people to further their interests. Some of those other four directors want things that are nearly enough exactly the opposite of what you want, and you can do nothing to expel them, and precious little to change their…

> Some of those other four directors want things that are nearly enough exactly the opposite of what you want, and you can do nothing to expel them ... I am the owner of the company, and there's nothing I can do to expel them? > Also, the best five people who are willing to fill the roles you control are not exactly the ones you would like to hire, but nevertheless, they're the best available and willing . Now what?…

> I am the owner of the company, and there's nothing I can do to expel them?

Not if we're building a metaphor for representative democracy here. If we're doing autocracy / absolutism then expel away!

> Not one single person in the country more qualified than either of these fellows?

Well, it seems like nobody better is able and desires to endure the grueling, ridiculous, perverse eligibility and interview process the hiring committee demands.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#370

Post by js8 » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 2:41 AM UTC

I think clearly USA is on a brink of a revolution. When I was a kid, I had a peaceful revolution in my country (Czechoslovakia). Here's roughly what happened and I think is relevant:

- A student protest was beaten by the police, which shocked the nation. More mass protests were organized. You're at that point now.

- A week later, there was a general strike. It was more a symbolic one (I think it was a day). I think it's good to organize it because it signals to the elites and everybody - this is serious, and the citizens are willing to solve the problem peacefully and constructively. The protests can be easily misconstrued in the media, the general strike cannot.

- In our case, the general demands (IIRC) were as follows:

1. Make constitutional changes to remove the single party (the communist party) from power.

2. Organize a free, special elections, which would allow newly formed parties and other candidates to run.

3. Free all the political prisoners, and honor the general declaration of human rights in practice.

- As a result of this, a provisional cabinet (kind of compromise between the current elites and opposition) was established, which realized these goals in the timeframe of half a year.

I think in your case, you should organize a general nationwide strike, and demand the following:

1. A constitutional reform to end dual-party system in the US, i.e. allow more candidates and parties to run, forbid all the shenanigans around voting (like electoral college and gerrymandering and queues at polling stations and obscure voting methods and machines), reform the campaign financing.

2. A special elections (starting on federal level, going down eventually) under this better system.

3. A constitutional police reform, which will put more oversight over all the civilian and military intelligence agencies that you have in the U.S., both federal and state level. (Possibly from an independent, randomly drawn body of citizens.)

I believe these are demands that most Americans can agree on, so the real change is possible.