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University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

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Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#361

Post by michaelmrose »

mnky9800n wrote: post #295
barry-cotter wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But lowering the standards does. And that’s the only way you’re going from a pass rate of a third to 100%. You might be able to double pass rates to two thirds by putting many more resources into teaching but that costs money or comes out of research time/teacher satisfaction. You learning does hurt the top of the class if you’re a marginal student. Students on the verge of failure take up a lot more instructional an…

What's wrong with spending more time on helping struggling students?

To play devils advocate its not free and by default the cost accrues to the more successful students who may not have the financial resources to pay the additional funds and may opt not to attend despite being quite qualified. In some cases you may be trading more qualified graduates for less.

For some the truth may be that their lack of success may be external issues that can't be resolved by an additional investment of staff resources or just unsuitability for the program that can't be resolved other than by picking a more suitable major.

There is of course in the context of US education which wastes massive amounts of money so the actual answer is to stop wasting money on sports and invest that money in students but in all cases resources remain finite and some failure rate is inevitable.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#362

Post by michaelmrose »

HPsquared wrote: post #319
gowld wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me learning doesn't hurt you.

The most important benefit of a university degree is the credential itself, indicating personal characteristics of the graduate. Lowering standards directly hurts the value of said credential. Learning is a side-effect of the process.

You are correct but isn't that strange and defective?

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#364

Post by Budabellly »

gen3 wrote: post #114
Budabellly wrote: post #99

Is there any way that it could make sense to require reporting the # of hours a student spends in SAT/ACT tutoring, whether it be private, through your school, or other? As a required field on the common app, this could help in making admissions decisions. There are so many reasons using standardized tests for admissions isn't fair across the board, but perhaps understanding how much prep went into the test would pro…

I can’t see how that makes anything more fair? Some people are just bad test takers. What good does it make to penalize them for studying and trying to do the best they can do? Someone with a learning difference would be at a disadvantage. Also, why wouldn’t I just lie?

I was thinking less about penalization or individual application decisions, and more about aggregate or anonymized datasets for institutions and governing bodies (College Board, Common App, etc.) to inform their policies.

And yeah, you could certainly lie, but I feel that's true for a lot of fields on college apps? Perhaps it could be reasonable to have your school validate or sponsor the answer?

It's well researched that private tutoring (among many other socio-economic factors) gives you a huge advantage on these tests. Having one of these bodies come out and say by how much could be a wake up call, and maybe spur more decisions like this one in the original post. Totally agree with your points, but also think tutoring != independent studying, the latter of which could not effectively be reported.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#365

Post by jameslk »

collegeburner wrote: post #355
jameslk wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes exactly. This is why every tech company should apply this type of standardized testing to software engineers as well. We can test for specific types of algorithms and have them regurgitate them on whiteboards, making it easy to compare each candidate on highly relevant skills they will be using on the job. It's not perfect because there's still rampant ageism in our industry but it's better than letting ourselves…

Okay, I hated taking SATs as much as anyone, and have an AP exam in a few hours, so I'm no standardized test fan. But there are reasons for it that obviously don't apply in the same ways when evaluating job applicants. While some objective comparison might be helpful, this is a massive apples-and-oranges issue. * College applicants have, by and large, no real-world experience that demonstrates their competency. There…

It's a shame this conversations always has to split into either of two camps: dogmatically for standardized testing or against it. It's almost as if there's no awareness that perhaps it could be beneficial to try both, perhaps where it's appropriate, and see what the outcome is. Just like not every company uses whiteboard interviews.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#366

Post by gliese1337 »

ciarannolan wrote: post #200
gliese1337 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they were to implement a new test, I can pretty much guarantee applications would drop like a rock; it would have the essential effect of limiting the applicant pool to Californians who don't want to go out-of-state for college--'cause when anyone else is applying for colleges, do you really think they'll want to take another big test just to add the UC system on to the big list that they can already apply to with…

Maybe the University of California system should primarily serve the people of California.

Maybe it should, but there is no indication that they have actually made a purposeful choice to go that route.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#367

Post by woofie11 »

nottorp wrote: post #316
woofie11 wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In between. They're run by not-for-profits.

Multi billion dollar not-for-profits? :)

Yes. ETS, ACT, College Board, etc. are all not-for-profits.

The not-for-profits means individuals can't get limitlessly rich off of it, and there is no fiduciary duty to maximize shareholder value. They're not perfect -- plenty of people make multimillion salaries at not-for-profits -- but you don't get hundreds of millions or billions of personal profit from a not-for-profit.

There are plenty of many-billion-dollar not-for-profits, especially in education and in medical.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#368

Post by grumple »

ciarannolan wrote: post #198
jwilber wrote: post #128

UC Berkeley alumni here. Don’t know that this is a good thing. Currently, the UC’s provide a lot of weight to holistic applications. These often favor privileged kids, as they have access to far more opportunities than others. For some, the SAT provided a sort of leveling field in that regard. Still, it wasn’t perfect, but I fail to see how what they come up with will fix the issue. Of interest is that all of this is…

>These often favor privileged kids, as they have access to far more opportunities than others. I think these "holistic" admissions do the opposite. They allow a small group of college administrators to pick which "backgrounds" they want to make up the freshman class each year.

Admissions already works like this. An admissions committee is a bunch of professors that volunteered / were convinced to do admissions, and they consider the academic background, personal background, demographics, essays (sometimes), and most of all - ability to pay. Requiring aid negatively impacts your chances of even getting in.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#369

Post by remarkEon »

charlesju wrote: post #274
remarkEon wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems totally unrelated, unless you believe that academic aptitude is 100% environmental.

Empirical data shows those from upper middle class families tend to do better than those living near the poverty line. Seems pretty well documented at this point.

So? Empirical data also shows that if you’re 7’ tall you tend to be good at basketball.

Pointing out that people who are doing well now tend to do well in the future is not a useful observation. My original point in this discussion was that removing the tests actually hurts people who are not doing well now, since they have fewer opinions to game the system and having an empirical and objective test of their abilities is the best (and cheapest) opportunity to stand out.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#370

Post by Gibbon1 »

njonesuk wrote: post #332
Gibbon1 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So whats your point here?

That your statement about "the whole European system" is factually incorrect, because every single country takes their own approach, and there are huge variations between them. Trying to tar the whole of Europe with one brush would be like Europeans conflating the US education system with Paraguay and Ecuador because it's the "whole American system".

So whats your point here?
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