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Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

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Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#361

This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…

If it makes you feel any better, the lockdowns probably don't matter in the limit. 1) Individual behavior changed prior to the lockdowns (people don't want to die) 2) The government appears generally too incompetent to figure out how to lower R0 low enough to eradicate the virus 3) Since everyone can see that the govt is fucking this up, the marginal utility of hard lockdowns becomes less than the marginal pain. Some…

"The government appears generally too incompetent to figure out how to lower R0 low enough to eradicate the virus"

There is no universe where that was ever going to happen absent herd immunity. It was never a declared goal by any major government and I doubt you could find a single quote from a qualified professional suggesting that is a realistic approach.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#362
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Australia has its seasons shifted by half a year, so even if Australia had taken similar measures, I'd expect them to have a lot lower transmission rates because respiratory disease peak in winter. https://www.mja.com.au/sites/default/files/issues/210_10/mja...

1) No evidence that COVID-19 is affected by weather. 2) Australia and US have quite similar temperatures right now given that it’s often moderate in Autumn/Spring.

There is abundant evidence that COVID-19 is affected by weather. [0] There is no evidence that the spread of COVID-19 is halted by weather.

[0] Google Scholar search of “COVID-19 humidity”

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#363

This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…

In no way does it make sense to blame the courts for doing their job. The authority for these stay at home orders is by and large derived from temporary emergency powers granted by legislative authority in the first place. If the legislatures want the governor to have this power, they will grant it. It is trivial to do so. Legislatures are not doing their job, blame them. In fact, blame the governor as well for not a…

Wisconsin has a famously partisan court where the Republican majority consistently rules firmly to the political right.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#364

This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…

The executive branch in Wisconsin took the approach of “By Any Means Necessary”. That has consequences as we have now seen. The Governor couldn’t prolong his lockdown order so he had a subordinate issue an order doing so. In doing that he ran aground on legal niceties such as the legislature having to be involved for much of the subordinate’s order to be legally effective.

The ends do not justify the means in this country. UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh’s highlighting of the decisiom is helpful: https://reason.com/2020/05/13/wisconsin-supreme-court-strike...

As for the court just ignoring the matter as an exercise of discretion that too would have been an abuse. The ends do not justify the means. We won’t last under that innovation.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Demand isn’t going to go up magically because of reopening. I’m not seeing much evidence for pent up demand outside of hair cuts, which are not exactly essential

I'm not sure about that. I'm ready to go to the gym, go out to restaurants, and just yesterday they took the caution tape off of the school playground and lots of kids were there. I don't think demand will immediately return to 100%, but I think quite a few people are itching to get out and spend money and enjoy life. Maybe not in some areas, but most of the country is probably ready to go.

40% of households making under 40k a year have had a job loss since March

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#366
post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By and large we have the rights we want. If you have only "the rights we want" then your rights are subject to the whims of the majority. In America our tradition of civil liberties protected the Illinois Nazis' freedom of speech as they marched through Skokie, celebrating the enemies of America who, within living memory, had waged war and killed millions of our citizens. The exercise meant as an affront to our nat…

I agree the Dankula issue was a mistake. I’m not saying our system is perfect, is yours? But by and large there is actually a pretty strong consensus, even across political lines, on our system of civil liberties and protections and I don’t see anything like the same level of consensus in the US.

It is regrettable that we do not have a consensus in favor of rights, and that so many people are seeking to use the law to make their critics shut up, in a variety of arenas — whether Trump-huggers trying to revoke the license of critical news media (such a "license" being a concept that doesn't even exist) or state run school districts disciplining kids for wearing a MAGA hat, or any one of a number of university speech codes.

But in that respect, at least, our law is working as intended, the founding fathers' forethought centuries ago still supplying a recourse in the courts when the politically weak are oppressed by the powerful. In the UK, the courts are an official apparatus of the powerful's oppression, and the consensus is that this is how it should be.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The entire rust belt became a cesspool of opiate and heroin addicts Is this really necessary? It's a very inaccurate, and hurtful thing to say.

Perhaps the wording is a bit harsh - not everywhere is a cesspool, a lot of places have bounced back, but the rust belt is particularly bad in area of opioid abuse - that is fact and very accurate. https://www.drugabuse.gov/drugs-abuse/opioids/opioid-summari...

I can find a bunch of articles summarizing the West Coast as a cesspool of heroin, homelessness, and opioid use as well.

https://www.city-journal.org/opiods-homelessness-west-coast

https://calmatters.org/explainers/californias-homelessness-c...

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2019-12-26/...

Maybe California is a cesspool too?

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/as-opioid-ep...

Or maybe Seattle?

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#368
post #348
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you add together UK, Spain, and Italy they have more deaths than the US as a whole. https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data

You just went and cherry-picked 3 of the most impacted countries in Europe, not very convincing. I can just as easily pick 3 of the least and tell you a completely different story.

I am simply stating there are more deaths in Europe than in the US. I can prove that with only 3 countries. Please don't interpret my statement as a comment on each individual country. There seems to be miscommunication here.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people I’ve talked to pushing for government to reopen things have lost jobs and businesses... or are about to. Their basic survival needs are being threatened. Show a little more compassion. I recommend talking to some people instead of parroting the pictures you see in the news.

So at the risk of asking a dumb question: why aren't protesters demanding e.g. more economic aid instead of a reopening? It's not like giving money to people in this crisis is a taboo anymore... it was one thing both the Congress and the White House agreed on for once. And it's not like if everything reopens then they're going to be instantly back in business. A lot of people will still stay home anyway. Wouldn't it…

Maybe because the protesters don't want handouts from agencies which have done a very poor job dispersing said handouts already.

I can go to a superstore which is deemed essential because it sells groceries and buy all sorts of items that specialty stores aren't able to sell me because they're closed. any member of the public can enter these superstores with no screening whatsoever. The small business owners would screen customers much more effectively than a large store would.

It's almost like we've taken steps that are arbitrary in nature and aren't actually scientifically valid because we don't have enough data on this virus and how it actually spreads. these arbitrary measures are then doubled down upon by the local governments in the name of preserving their authority and looking good to the press.

what really bugs me is the level of certainty that people seem to have about this. I'm coming from a position of uncertainty. Anyone being honest right now is doing the same.

Look at your comment: you are absolutely certain that a dubious at best chance of economic survival for small businesses is being traded against a certain chance of a public health crisis. I don't think you're being honest with yourself with a level of certainty like that. You're just like the rest of us flying blind, but you are just positive that you are right and that businesses should be closed to support your preconceived notions.

It's real easy to do that when you have a job that allows you to work remotely. It's not costing you anything just let those Walmart shopping losers go out and deal with the unemployment system. In the meantime a percentage of all of our tax dollars goes to paying off interest on the national debt and that percentage is going to have to increase as a result of this.

I'm not a moron or a science denier. I'm fine with taking on debt to the degree necessary to maximize public health. But there are multiple dimensions to public health not just this virus. My brother's business is in jeopardy and it was growing fast before this pandemic hit. Now I'm deeply concerned that he's going to fall back to an addiction that he beat 10 years ago. That's a tiny story that represents something that's going to happen in this country when young people who would otherwise be unaffected by the virus or going to suffer economic calamity.

By the way my brother always voted Democratic. Due to the false partisan positioning of opening versus reopening pushed by the media, he is now never going to vote Democrat again and plans to vote for Trump in November. He voted for Clinton last time think about that.

In the meantime people on keyboards who were going to vote for Biden anyway are now pushing policies that are going to hand this election to Trump. Maybe the elderly will carry Biden since many appear to be switching their votes. But when they're dead in a few years the young people who have lost their businesses will still be voting. It's not going to go well.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#370

This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…

> But what about the US? If all government is corrupt, if all taxes are sin, if all leaders on the other side are traitors to the cause, the people will never respect those in charge. The people don't obey the "orders" nor follow advice. This is a rather extremist take on the issue. You can be against unlawful orders while still obeying the scientific advisories. Take MA for example, where we have a stay-at-home advi…

Also just anecdotally, here in Ontario people seem to want to avoid catching and spreading the disease, more than to avoid clashing with the law (who can't really tell if you have a legitimate reason to be somewhere anyway); and the people who don't care about one don't care about the other either.

For the handful of people I see clearly flaunting the restrictions here, I feel like more often than not they have decent personal reasons for doing so, and I don't think it's my place to stick my nose in that.

A free person does not take orders from the state, nor from anyone. A free person has a right to weigh advice and conscience on his own terms, and negotiate his externalities with society.

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