MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions • Hacker News Board

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#361

Post by knzhou » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 12:28 AM UTC

codyb wrote: post #341

fallingknife wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's entirely the point. The people bitching about how the SAT isn't fair aren't smart poor people who are being beaten out by upper middle class losers, but rather upper middle class losers being beaten out by smart poor people. They tell themselves that the test isn't fair, but a part of them knows that they could never get into the 1500's even with all the prep in the world, so they try to get the admissions…

That’s nuts, I got a 1590 on my second try with a calculator that turned out to be missing batteries, the day after going to a friends house and drinking with my only prep being reading a few paragraphs from some big book. I had a lackluster performance on the new writing section the first time around or I wouldn’t have spent any time upping the original 1520 or whatever. The point is to brag a little yes because I r…

As I told a couple others, you just hit the ceiling.

That doesn't mean tests don't work; if you wanted to, you could have found much harder ones. (That's what I did, out of necessity. They wouldn't have given my app a second look if I hadn't.)

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#362

Post by bsder » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 12:30 AM UTC

ummwhat wrote: post #350

bsder wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect this is just getting rid of redundancy. Everyone taking the SAT subject tests is probably taking the equivalent Advanced Placement test anyhow. However, the biggest problems with these tests (and the AP tests) is that they are expensive --they cost a non-trivial amount of money to sign up for and they cost a lot of time to prepare for if your school doesn't offer direct AP classes. The expensiveness is the…

My school had a deal where when you signed up for an AP class you had to take the AP test. But if you pass the AP test (3 or higher) the school would reimburse you. I took 5 tests and never paid for one. Including the one where we didn't have a teacher for half a year (long story). I think this is the fairest way to do it. If you got talent but no money, the opportunity is still there.

> My school had a deal where when you signed up for an AP class you had to take the AP test. But if you pass the AP test (3 or higher) the school would reimburse you.

This just drives home the unfairness though.

You had a school that was willing to pony up this money. That is not universally true.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

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Post by perl4ever » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 12:40 AM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #340

Der_Einzige wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always tell people this who want "only high IQ" people to run society. "Oh, you want the people at Mensa to run your society?"

The overwhelming majority of the high IQ are not Mensa members. They are academics, doctors, lawyers, successful businesspeople, the kinds of people for whom it is more common in their friends group to have a Master’s degree than to be a high school dropout.

Some people consider a person with a Master's degree to be a dropout. (yes, I know, not necessarily...)

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

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Post by Hydraulix989 » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 12:42 AM UTC

bsanr2 wrote: post #329

Hydraulix989 wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G_factor_(psychometrics) An individual's performance on one type of cognitive task tends to be comparable to that person's performance on other kinds of cognitive tasks.

It's not impossible that these tests measure something other than general intelligence, that just happens to correlate with social outcomes (like historical, relative familial wealth). IIRC general intelligence also doesn't simply measure speed of cognition, but also ability to choose what to focus on ("intuition"), which these tests do not measure.

Or intelligence is correlated with familial wealth because it is hereditary and smarter people tend to end up in more complex cognitively demanding professions which tend to pay more.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

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Post by pishpash » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 12:47 AM UTC

chongli wrote: post #342

barry-cotter wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you can find out about all these tricks for free on Khan Academy or for $20 in a SAT prep book.

There are plenty of kids in the US who can't afford to bring lunch to school, let alone pay $20 for a SAT prep book. Many of these kids don't have a computer or Internet access at home for that matter, so Khan Academy isn't much good to them either. When we talk about rich vs poor kids, there's a HUGE gap that many people don't realize.

They have public libraries with both computers and books. Access has never been the issue if there is the will.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

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Post by saagarjha » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 12:55 AM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #334

chongli wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the reason the SATs are able to maintain a spread that lets them normalize the distribution is that they fill the tests with stupid tricks that fool people into wasting time. If you do a ton of prep then you learn to spot these tricks and then a lot of the questions become really easy and you can knock them off quickly. A poor smart student may have mastery of the material but their score will suffer if they…

And you can find out about all these tricks for free on Khan Academy or for $20 in a SAT prep book.

Not everyone can afford to sink time into learning SAT tricks.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

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Post by alistairSH » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 12:57 AM UTC

underpand wrote: post #352

_hardwaregeek wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not entirely true. SAT scores can be used as ways to admit more privileged students, as they tend to have access to more test prep along with privileges such as extra time: > In 2010 three College Board researchers analyzed data from more than 150,000 students who took the SAT, and they found that the demographics of the two “discrepant” groups differed substantially. The students with the inflated SAT scores…

GPA is already scaled based on income because poor schools give higher GPAs for the same level of knowledge and skill. The study is useless.

While I've heard that said, I've never seen proof that grades are inflated at poor schools. I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't actually the opposite, as helicopter parents and their ambitious students are more able (more free time) to self-promote and argue their way into higher grades.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

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Post by convivialdingo » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 12:58 AM UTC

chongli wrote: post #342

barry-cotter wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you can find out about all these tricks for free on Khan Academy or for $20 in a SAT prep book.

There are plenty of kids in the US who can't afford to bring lunch to school, let alone pay $20 for a SAT prep book. Many of these kids don't have a computer or Internet access at home for that matter, so Khan Academy isn't much good to them either. When we talk about rich vs poor kids, there's a HUGE gap that many people don't realize.

I don’t think that gap is huge in terms of internet access - there’s certainly a gap but it’s mostly a function of parents limiting access in my experience.

84% of teens have smartphones in the US. A large percentage of that remaining 16% have access to internet at school, as 98% of schools have broadband internet.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

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Post by askafriend » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 12:59 AM UTC

ebrenes wrote: post #242

SkyBelow wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yes. They do. It's maybe not the answer you were looking for, but if you are better prepared, you'll do better at the task at hand. Seems fairly straightforward. I think you missed the point of the two questions, which is a question of what scholastic potential issue. What you are measuring is something that I might call scholastic actuality. It is how good they are with the tools they have. Potential is how good th…

But every metric used by colleges is to measure what you termed "scholastic actuality": - School grades: if you didn't get the GPA you're already out of the running in many colleges - Extracurricular Activities: if you didn't actually participate, then no one is going to look at how you might have done if you had participated - College Essay: if you can't write you're not going to get any points here, no matter the p…

This is basically what I was trying to get at with my original comment - I think you did a better job of expressing it.

At some level you have to have to have something to show for your potential - otherwise there's no way to choose between candidates. Every single metric will advantage those who had the time, money, and resources to invest in developing academic aptitude. There are a small group of people who get by on developing musical or athletic aptitude but even those require time, money, energy, resources.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

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Post by saagarjha » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 1:03 AM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #348

mekoka wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The premise of your answer is that MIT wants good "students" and "test takers". What if that's not what they want so much anymore? A test is supposed to be a metric, an indicator of something. But metrics tend to become target as soon as they're exposed. Maybe then they still remain an indicator of something, but not necessarily what they were originally intended to filter for. I understand that it might feel like th…

Good test takers are people who have learned things and know them well enough to pass a test on it. There are many kinds of test. The SAT is the kind designed by psychometricians, experts with Ph.D.s building on millions of man hours of research to make tests that are both valid and reliable, that predict success in college and are as close to ungameable as possible. MIT could drop the real SAT tomorrow and still fil…

> The SAT is the kind designed by psychometricians, experts with Ph.D.s building on millions of man hours of research to make tests that are both valid and reliable, that predict success in college and are as close to ungameable as possible.

This is what the CollegeBoard wants you think. You don’t have to be all that great to realize that the people writing the test are hardly better than you are at both the subject and writing test, and in many case significantly worse.