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$5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

caloes.ca.gov

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Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#361

Post by rahimnathwani »

anigbrowl wrote: post #349
rahimnathwani wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There is a significant increase in hoarding, and in many cases it is for the explicit purpose of creating artificial scarcity to increase the price of a product." People hoarding aren't trying to create artificial scarcity. They are buying because they anticipate scarcity, and want to either (i) be prepared, or (ii) profit from resale. Hoarding has caused shortages which, in turn, justify the original hoarding. This…

If you know your actions are going to lead to shortages and you pursue them anyway to make profit (rather than meet your minimum personal needs), then you're absolutely trying to create it.

The statement's conclusion doesn't follow from its assumptions.

And, in any case, you ignored the point made myself and others in this thread, that any individual's actions have ~zero impact on whether there is a shortage. It's the collective result of many individual actions.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#362

Post by dillonmckay »

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #261
koheripbal wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best solution is to increase production to the point where all those hoarders are left with tons of worthless inventory.

Sure if it were as easy as that. In normal circumstances, it wouldn't be easy, nor as quick as demand shifts. In a time when supply chains are disrupted and we're all WFH to slow a pandemic, expecting another industry to drastically increase production seems like a false hope at best and an immoral one at worst.

So the market is functioning as intended based on the circumstances.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#363

Post by pasquinelli »

koheripbal wrote: post #254
6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amen. Price isn't even the issue here, just a symptom. Hoarding is the issue. Limit people to not buying 100 rolls of toilet paper, and suddenly the price everyone's willing to pay levels out. Price isn't the problem. Uneven distribution is.

The best solution is to increase production to the point where all those hoarders are left with tons of worthless inventory.

Isn't that tons of wasted work and materials?

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#364

Post by watt »

cl0rkster wrote: post #191
EdgarVerona wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You neglected to mention that when people see fake headlines about toilet paper scarcity, there's a nontrivial percentage of people who see that as an opportunity for said arbitrage. There's two kinds of hoarding happening here: fear-alleviating and profit-seeking, which allows the profit seeking form of acquisition to be possible. Several weeks ago, it wouldn't have been feasible for someone to scoop up the entire m…

Seems to me that it's unlikely the toilet paper producers are perpetually running at 100% factory output. Something tells me they will respond by increasing production. Why? Because they are seeing enormous sales currently. Of course they want more. With some of the supply chain troubles we are having with everything closing, though, the delay might be slightly longer. I highly doubt this shortage will last longer th…

Once the panic is over, there will be a slump in sales: everybody will be wiping from their own enormous hoard. They will not start going to toilet twice as often or start using twice as much paper. The real demand base line is 100% same.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#365

Post by indymike »

g_langenderfer wrote: post #263
EdgarVerona wrote: post #95

A lot of people in this thread are willfully ignoring some basic facts here. These products are being made in sufficient quantity for everyone. There is not a significant decrease in production. There is a significant increase in hoarding, and in many cases it is for the explicit purpose of creating artificial scarcity to increase the price of a product. This is not a case of toilet paper suddenly costing more to pro…

> and in many cases it is for the explicit purpose of creating artificial scarcity to increase the price of a product. So are you suggesting: - I create a toilet paper cartel with all my buddies - we hit surrounding area grocery stores with surgical TP buying - Hoard til prices rise - dump on muppet consumers - profit?? this is ridiculous

It is also not likely to work beyond a few days unless you have the means to continuously buy all the toilet paper.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#366

Post by daenz »

pmoriarty wrote: post #273
mhb wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's another benefit of the signal sent by high prices. It encourages the use of alternatives. There are many substitutes for toilet paper including other paper products and bidets.

"There are many substitutes for toilet paper including other paper products and bidets." After coming back from a trip to India, an old housemate of mine told me that a huge part of the world uses their hand to wipe, and he decided to adopt the practice himself. He then warned me not to drink out of a cup he'd left on the floor in the bathroom. I'm also reminded of a story I'd heard about an American traveling on a t…

>After coming back from a trip to India, an old housemate of mine told me that a huge part of the world uses their hand to wipe, and he decided to adopt the practice himself

And you promptly moved out of the house, right?

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#367

Post by dillonmckay »

EdgarVerona wrote: post #250
mhb wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's another benefit of the signal sent by high prices. It encourages the use of alternatives. There are many substitutes for toilet paper including other paper products and bidets.

That is a good point, and if that was an outcome of this situation that'd be great, as long as people who otherwise can't afford/can't find toilet paper can get their hands on them. On a personal level I think bidets are fantastic. I'm not sure why they didn't spread in the United States.

Also, why ducted A/C?

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#368

Post by pdeuchler »

gwright wrote: post #267
EdgarVerona wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how I feel, precisely. There are real, human consequences to these price increasing theories. It will be felt by people who are, by a large margin, not the target audience of Hacker News. It'll be felt by people who have to choose between having basic healthcare supplies and paying rent, or eating. Indeed, at that point I think rationing - either by the companies selling the product, or by the government (as…

Letting the price float is the fastest way to discourage the hoarders and let the market come back to a sane equilibrium. By not allowing the price to float you can see that the result is empty shelves. The empty shelf is also a "real, human consequence".

The recent spate of people worried about "empty shelves" is kind of funny to me, it's essentially admitting to the world that you have no idea how the world works and the smallest disruption to your daily bubble is rocking your world.

The shelves are getting fully restocked every single morning. Go to your local Target/Walmart/Grocery store when they open if you don't believe me. Stores, suppliers, and producers have already begun rationing and metering out goods onto shelves explicitly because of people hoarding. The shelves being empty are a result of idiots running around trying to buy up everything they can, and stores reacting properly. The "free market" is already acting in response to those hoarders, they're discouraging it, and preventing it on a grand scale pretty effectively.

Your complaint about "not allowing the price to float" is a complete non sequitur even if you're still the type to swallow free market ideology hook, line, sinker, because people buying in surplus isn't demand. It's just, well, hoarding. Coronavirus isn't going to cause people to be thirstier, hungrier, or need to wipe their ass more. People are just buying in advance. Without people fearing for a worldwide pandemic nobody would be willing to pay increased prices for these goods. So it's not actually about demand, it's about artificial scarcity driven by a global pandemic. Thus, price gouging tickets.

But even if you don't buy any of that, the vast majority of our supply lines are JIT, so "empty shelves" aren't really a thing... what we'd really see is a dwindling of supply over a period of time. Which isn't happening.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#369

Post by gwright »

pdeuchler wrote: post #368
gwright wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Letting the price float is the fastest way to discourage the hoarders and let the market come back to a sane equilibrium. By not allowing the price to float you can see that the result is empty shelves. The empty shelf is also a "real, human consequence".

The recent spate of people worried about "empty shelves" is kind of funny to me, it's essentially admitting to the world that you have no idea how the world works and the smallest disruption to your daily bubble is rocking your world. The shelves are getting fully restocked every single morning. Go to your local Target/Walmart/Grocery store when they open if you don't believe me. Stores, suppliers, and producers have…

> people buying in surplus isn't demand. It's just, well, hoarding

Of course it is demand. You may also call it "hoarding" those aren't mutually exclusive concepts.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#370

Post by KyleJune »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #194
geofft wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you buy 10 bottles? What are you going to do with them? Are you afraid they're going to run out? Why? (Put another way, why aren't you buying 10 bottles of drain cleaner right now?) One of my local pharmacies had hand sanitizer in stock for $3 and no obvious limit on purchases. I bought one, because I needed one, and I expected that (because my locality had announced anti-price-gouging laws) I could go back…

I would buy 10 because that would last me 2 months (current expectation) to a year (normal usage), so I don't need to think about it for a wbile and, yes, I would not need to worry that they would run out. "I expected that (because my locality had announced anti-price-gouging laws) I could go back and buy another one if I needed it" Anti-price-gouging laws might stop people selling at high prices near you, but they d…

That's why we need rationing in addition to anti price gouging laws. Anti price gouging laws make it riskier for people to buy large quantities with the intent to just sell it for a profit. If there was a high risk of punishment, people like the guys who went around Tennessee buying all of the available local supply of hand sanitizer with the intent to price gouge wouldn't have done so. Then rationing(like limits on how much of an item can be purchase at a time) would make it harder for individuals to buy more than they need. When there is a massive line of people just to get toilet paper and other basic necessities like we have seen at stores the past few days, people would be less likely to go through the hassle of finding the items and going through line again. Without a purchase limit, some people will completely fill up their carts leaving those who were not quick enough with less. The fear of people bulk buying the whole supply and the knowledge that people will do it to price gouge just increase the amount of panic and make more people feel the urge to go and buy in bulk.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/tennessee-man-sitting-on-a...

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