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Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

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Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#361

From the engineer's medium post: > For example, someone changed the default desktop wallpaper during the walkout last year so that the Linux penguin was holding a protest sign. The company has never reacted aggressively in response to a notification such as this in the past. It’s always been a celebrated part of the culture. I suppose this was her mistake: ""It's always been a celebrated part of the culture" Google c…

> But I would never implement that kind of notification like she had done, not without written approval from my boss and maybe my bosses' boss to cover my ass.

If this is something that goes through your mind, the organization you are at is broken and probably dangerously hostile.

Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Spiers, 21, said she went through the standard approval process, which requires two co-workers to greenlight changes, before updating the Chrome browser extension That sounds like code review approvals, not actual project/management approval of the 'feature'. We have the same: Cannot commit any code change unless 2 other team members have reviewed it. That has nothing to do with having actual project/management app…

I'd agree, it sounds a lot like a code review, but at Google that was also the approval standard for deploying such an extension. I don't really see how Google could be in the right here though. If they have an internal program for creating alerts/extensions for specific websites, and Spiers followed the normal procedure for adding such an extension, there doesn't seem to be a problem. The only problem is Google bein…

> but at Google that was also the approval standard for deploying such an extension.

If Google allows any team member to freely push changes without formal change request, it has to be implied that changes must comply with the scope of the project, company policies, professional standards, etc.

In any case, my point would stand: It does not sound like she had actual project/management approval.

To play devil's advocate, the 'approval' she got does not absolve her (if we suppose that she did something wrong), it just means that the coworkers who approved the change are also in hot water.

Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> random messages into Federally-protected content isn’t random speech. There are reasonable arguments on both sides. Looking forward to seeing them play out at the NLRB and in the courts. The only solid takeaway at this time is, if you think this is black-and-white, you’re missing salient detail.

Random speech doesn't become any less random just because it is federally protected. On the contrary, it actually becomes less federally protected if it is random, because federal protection of speech requires specific time, place, and manner.

"federal protection of speech requires specific time, place, and manner."

I'm actually ignorant on the specific time/place/manner of protection for organizing. Can you educate me?

Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#364
I think a lot of people are missing the bigger picture here and are too zoomed in on the specific issue of unionisation. Google really had no choice here, and it's actually a problem for them that this is coming out now via a blog post by the fired employee and not by their own admission.

Google is in a phenomenally trusted position in the world. Chrome is the most popular browser. It auto updates silently and continuously, as do installed extensions. Vast swathes of information and infrastructure is accessed via web apps. We tend to forget that browser makers have access to all our authentication tokens and can do whatever they like.

Put simply, given the level of web dependence in our lives and infrastructure, those who can modify browsers are practically gods. The same goes for operating system developers of course.

We don't think about this because our level of trust in those developers and the corporations they work for is extremely high and deservedly so: after decades of using operating systems and web browsers they've never violated that trust. In fact they've reinforced it by rolling out encryption to block rogue government departments who were exploiting the lack of it, they've invested heavily in security to lock out hackers and done many other great things.

But trust is hard to build and easy to destroy. What if browser makers stopped being so trustworthy? What if they started to become convinced of their own superior morality, the correctness of their political judgements, the importance of their role in the world? What could they do?

They could use SafeBrowsing to arbitrarily censor the web.

They could edit out individual comments, rewrite news stories, insert their own views into the middle of documents purporting to be neutral. They could distort your view of the web at will.

They could violate our privacy at will by linking our identities together and then publishing what we've written, they could publish browsing logs, they could take over any accounts we have and use them for whatever purposes they like, they could feed sensitive information to political enemies to give themselves plausible deniability, they could even frame us by posting illegal material under those accounts. It'd just look like someone phished the password.

They could do many other things we never even considered.

Google absolutely needed to go nuclear on this employee. The news has been filled over the past years with stories about Googler's increasingly hard-left political activism. As a consequence some users and even politicians have started to wonder if Google Search is trustworthy, but their trust in browser developers is so total, so blind, the world hasn't yet taken the next mental leap and started to wonder if Chrome is. Mozilla is hardly in a better position: it's funded by Google and literally just down the road from them. If the integrity of the Chrome devs start to be doubted, few will consider Mozilla devs to be radically different.

Inserting political JavaScript via browser security mechanisms targeted at Googlers, even if it may seem fairly harmless in this case, is a very problematic situation and a slippery slope Google simply cannot afford to go near. It raises fundamental questions, like are Google's internal procedures robust? What else might have been slipped through code review already? Are Google employees only adjusting their own tools or did some already start to abuse their access to people's private data and systems? How many of them feel the ends justify the means when dealing with political causes they feel passionately about?

How safe is Chrome, really?

Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked in security for years. This isn't really true. The majority of all security breaches are caused by internal threats, not by some hacker group breaching your firewall. Malicious actors tailgating someone into an office and stealing an unlocked laptop, or an unlocked laptop being stolen while at a coffee shop or airport, is also a very common occurrence I've seen at most of my clients.

The thing is its easy to see that someone stole your machine and take action to revoke credentials. Further, the damage a person can do with a dev machine is rather limited - probably the worst that might happen is exfiltrating code. Yes, devops machines can do more damage, but presumably all their remote access is 2FA protected (at least). But a devs main influence is pushing to a git remote, and triggering a build.…

>probably the worst that might happen is exfiltrating code

This is far far from the worst that might (and does) happen. I think you severely underestimate the average dev's access to critical systems.

>but presumably all their remote access is 2FA protected

hahahahahaha

You also severely overestimate the security of most companies. A lot of F500s don't even use 2FA at all, let alone on something like CI/CD.

> unlikely that an attacker would find and exploit it faster than the defender would realize the box is gone and revoke keys

I have firsthand seen many cases where this isn't true at all. OTOH, I've never once heard of anyone catching a breach by using Little Snitch or anything close to it (though I'm not opposed to it at all as a good practice).

And in many cases, it has very little to do with "revoking keys" or any kind of remote access. Many people, whether they realize it or not, usually have some very valuable data just sitting in a csv file on their machine (I've encountered a large number of devs that have partial exports of customer databases stored locally on their machine that they were using for local testing). That type of stuff is easily lifted, no remote access required.

Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#366
post #110
post #20

Did no one read the article? > Spiers, 21, said she went through the standard approval process, which requires two co-workers to greenlight changes, before updating the Chrome browser extension. Another source at Google familiar with the update approval process confirmed to NBC news that those two approvals are standard practice for a browser extension update. She did it exactly according to internal policy. The exte…

> She did it exactly according to internal policy. I don't think this person or the other organizers should have been fired, but code review is not the same as organizational approval. (Disclosure: I work at Google, speaking only for myself)

“organizational approval”

Is the literal problem, which necessitated the pop-up.

The Organization Does Not Approve™

It’s like asking someone if you can kick them in the knee before doing so. What do you think they’ll say?

Y’all seem confused: the organization, Google in this case, is antognizing it’s organizing employees. Google absolutely do not, will not, can not approve of unionization efforts. Ever.

Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't feel like my employer is a rival or an enemy; I feel like they are a partner in our mutual goal to make a lot of money [...] it's not hard to understand why many of us feel no draw to unions. It's hard for me to understand when you look at other similar industries. We're not talking about blue collar unions here: we're talking about white collar unions. They're very different. Take Hollywood as an example.…

Hollywood might not be the best example of unions' effectiveness, given the revelations of the Me Too movement. Have you considered using the AMA or similar in your examples instead?

What, the fact that Hollywood highlighted a society wide problem should be counted against it? Or do you honestly think that sexual harassment by exploiting power imbalance only happens in Los Angeles?

Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#368
post #7

>Kathryn Spiers, who worked as a security engineer, updated an internal Chrome browser extension so that each time Google employees visited the website of IRI Consultants — the Troy, Michigan, firm that Google hired this year amid a groundswell of labor activism at the company — they would see a pop-up message that read: “Googlers have the right to participate in protected concerted activities.” You should get fired…

The spyware was designed to pop up notifications on visiting URLs to users, she just added another message for a url.

"Part of my job was to write browser notifications so that my coworkers can be automatically notified of employee guidelines and company policies while they surf the web. "

I'd be curious to know what URLs employees get alerts about? Perhaps services which do not take kindly to seeing IPs from Google offices?

Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why bite the hand that feeds you? Why the struggle, why the strain? Why make trouble, why make scenes? Why go against the grain, why swim upstream? It ain't, it ain't, it ain't no use You're bound, you're bound, you're bound to lose What's done, what's done, what's done is done That's the way the river runs So why get wet? Why break a sweat? Why waste your precious breath? Why beat your handsome brow? Nothing changes…

I like this. Where is it from? In response to it: You can't apply this to everything, you need to pick you battles. There might be better means to an end.

It's from Hadestown by Anais Mitchell. Amazing album.

Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#370
post #117
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still worth discussing if their reaction warranted the offense. Would they have fired her had she added a pop-up on Earth Day encouraging employees to recycle? Or would she have received a slap on the wrist for that. In other words, how much of what she was advocating was part of the decision to fire?

> Or would she have received a slap on the wrist for that. Or would she have received a pat on the back, given that she went through the Standard Procedure for adding a feature to the browser plug-in?

Sounds like she went through standard procedure to add code, but the feature was not sanctioned by management....

i.e. if you work on a payment system, add you add code to siphon sub-cent rounding "errors" to a "settlement" account, said code may pass review (because it looks legit to code reviewers), but I bet management would be pissed at the change if not prior approved.

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