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An update on YC China

blog.ycombinator.com

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Re: An update on YC China

#361

Post by ericmay »

bakuninsbart wrote: post #317
icelancer wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that this kind of equality is going to be a thing in China is putting the cart about 200 miles ahead of the horse.

China, as most other communist countries, implemented gender workplace equality much earlier than the West. Furthermore, China has probably the most aggressive affirmative action programs in the world. Yes, China is bad on human rights in some aspects, but these blatant misrepresentations need to stop. They only serve the massive propaganda campaign the US started in recent years.

Affirmative action programs like rounding up Uighur Muslims and making them more Han Chinese?

You’re right about China (and other communist countries) being first on gender equality at least in some respects, but... so what? In the West it’s good enough at a macro scale.

Saying China is bad on human rights in some respects is a gross understatement.

Re: An update on YC China

#362

Post by throwaway2048 »

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #359
throwaway2048 wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They haven't seized them outright maybe, but they are owned by Chinese citizens and carefully managed by the government, The CEO and founder of Huawei is a member of the communist party, the government also requires a large staff of military intelligence workers. Do not assume the strong distinction in the west between private entities and the government exists in China. In China if you are of any real size whatsoeve…

Of course they're owned by Chinese citizens. That's why I chose them as examples, rather than other big companies with a large presence in China, such as Volkswagen or Apple. > carefully managed by the government That's not true. They make business decisions based on the profit motive. > The CEO and founder of Huawei is a member of the communist party That's not very meaningful. There are a lot of people who are memb…

I never stated that these types of "private" enterprise aren't different than traditional Chinese state owned enterprise, they absolutely beyond a shadow of a doubt are.

The Chinese government does not operate them directly, but it has a direct hand in how they are run in a way that simply does not have a parallel in the west.

An analogy might be an American company appointing high ranking government people (who are still active in government) to their board of directors, accepting special government run departments, and working closely with the government on goals and policy.

That sort of thing is entirely unheard of, outside of perhaps defense contractors in the USA, but even there, there is clear division between private and public interests.

Re: An update on YC China

#363

Post by paulddraper »

jjcc wrote: post #243
billfruit wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The international community barely cares about what India is similarly doing in Kashmir, despite India being a democracy. In effect the most fundamental right in a democracy, the right to habeas corpus is suspended there. There is much politically informed anti-China coverage in the MSM, so it is hard to take reports on China from them without much skepticism. Even in Hong Kong it is on display that the police are la…

The international community as HNers know is just part of whole international community, all western countries. There is another part ignored by English media audience. I would speculate that most HNers see the other part as naive , bribed by China , or evil while Western countries are the owner of final truth and stand on the high moral ground. Totally exclude other possibilities. My speculation about YC is that the…

What the point of the quote?

It's Western capitalism + allies vs Eastern communism + allies?

Re: An update on YC China

#364

Post by NateEag »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #311
pcbro141 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ~1 million Uighurs the Chinese government has in concentration camps. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/11/16/world/asia/ch...

How is that different from the US having fuck knows how many migrants (and children) in concentration camps, or "terrorists" in concentration camps, or slaves in overcrowded prisons, etc etc etc. I mean not specifically you, but why are people in these comments all moral policing a country halfway across the world while their own is just as bad?

The migrants, while in a terrible plight, are technically coming into a foreign country without following the proper process. They're suffering a (deeply problematic) government response to that action, essentially a poorly done catch and deport process.

China is systematically doing this to its own citizens, and intentionally harvesting body parts from them.

Those are, in fact, quite different.

China is

Re: An update on YC China

#365

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

throwaway2048 wrote: post #362
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they're owned by Chinese citizens. That's why I chose them as examples, rather than other big companies with a large presence in China, such as Volkswagen or Apple. > carefully managed by the government That's not true. They make business decisions based on the profit motive. > The CEO and founder of Huawei is a member of the communist party That's not very meaningful. There are a lot of people who are memb…

I never stated that these types of "private" enterprise aren't different than traditional Chinese state owned enterprise, they absolutely beyond a shadow of a doubt are. The Chinese government does not operate them directly, but it has a direct hand in how they are run in a way that simply does not have a parallel in the west. An analogy might be an American company appointing high ranking government people (who are…

> An analogy might be an American company appointing high ranking government people (who are still active in government)

It's not at all uncommon for high-ranking government and military officials in the US to sit on corporate boards right after they leave government. There's a well known revolving door.

American companies are also subject to very significant pressure from the government. See, for example, how the US government informally (and successfully) pressured all the major payment processors to cut off WikiLeaks in 2010, or how social media companies are now under significant pressure to censor content.

This sort of pressure, which exists to varying degrees in every country, is not the same as the government directly running a company or dictating its business plans. That is not, by and large, how things operate in China either in the private sector. I see the claim made all the time (for example in the first post I responded to) that all businesses in China are basically run by the government. I think the people making those comments don't know what they are talking about, and are basically advancing a paranoia about China which has become ever more intense in the US over the past few months.

Re: An update on YC China

#366

Post by seppin »

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #277
seppin wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> doing business in China is different and relies on of relationship building that takes a long time to nurture That's a strange way of saying they require a Chinese national to be part owner, and if it grows enough the party will seize it all.

I don't think there are ownership restrictions in this economic sector, and the Chinese government hasn't seized Alibaba, Tencent or Huawei. It sounds like you're talking more out of preconceived biases than actual knowledge of how business works in China.

> and the Chinese government hasn't seized Alibaba, Tencent or Huawei.

Funny, your examples include a company famous for the CCP removing their CEO (Ali) and the company being an arm of military intelligence (Huawei).

I don't feel the need to continue.

Re: An update on YC China

#367

Post by throwaway2048 »

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #365
throwaway2048 wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never stated that these types of "private" enterprise aren't different than traditional Chinese state owned enterprise, they absolutely beyond a shadow of a doubt are. The Chinese government does not operate them directly, but it has a direct hand in how they are run in a way that simply does not have a parallel in the west. An analogy might be an American company appointing high ranking government people (who are…

> An analogy might be an American company appointing high ranking government people (who are still active in government) It's not at all uncommon for high-ranking government and military officials in the US to sit on corporate boards right after they leave government. There's a well known revolving door. American companies are also subject to very significant pressure from the government. See, for example, how the US…

However the key difference is the amount of coercion, you aren't going to be shut out of the country, or business if you refuse to appoint government people in the USA, or do the government other favors.

The US government and private interests do indeed co-opt each other a lot, but its nowhere near the (implicit) threat of being run out of business (or worse) that it is in china.

Re: An update on YC China

#368

Post by whoevercares »

Jamwinner wrote: post #344
bakuninsbart wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China, as most other communist countries, implemented gender workplace equality much earlier than the West. Furthermore, China has probably the most aggressive affirmative action programs in the world. Yes, China is bad on human rights in some aspects, but these blatant misrepresentations need to stop. They only serve the massive propaganda campaign the US started in recent years.

Those are strong, and unlikely assertions. Do you have any sources for your claims?

Native Chinese here. Some Minorities get automatic extra points and special admission category at college entrance examination. You don’t know how big a deal it is to normal Chineses

Re: An update on YC China

#369

Post by zkid18 »

I visited Eric Migicovsky’s presentation in Hong Kong a year ago dedicated to YC China. He is a founder of Pebble, YC partner, and helped Qi Lu a lot in establishing YC China. Although China VC investments have almost surpassed US, there were only three projects from Great China (Mainland China, Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan) in YC. They wanted to find out how they can bring more local talents to SV.

Unfortunately, it seems they haven’t succeeded much. I think the main reason is that Chinese entrepreneurs rarely want to target the international market. They don’t really know much about it, they don’t have the network and they have a huge domestic market, where they feel much more convenient.

The state of early-stage investment is different in China, compare to US or Europe. You won’t find here many events or meetups where angles or early-stage VC connected with entrepreneurs. They don’t actually like sharing events of that kind. For example, the largest community of such kind in Shanghai is founded by non-Chinese. The only way to reach a well-known VC fund is your network. A warm introduction helps multiples your chances for fundraising dramatically. Probably YC failed with establishing a good network among early-stage VC funds in China, and moreover, they don’t have a strong brand there.

The Chinese market is not mature enough. Maybe in US you eager to make a blue ocean project, but in China entrepreneurs mostly driven by higher returns. China is all about scale - even a bad product may have a huge IRR. However, never underestimate the local competitors. If the company managed to get a series A fundraising and got coverage in media most probably they surpassed 30-40 completely identical companies. Such tight competition brings some innovative ideas - WeChat, Doyin, VipKid. The western world can study these cases. Unfortunately, there's been mostly negative coverage in media about China nowadays. I worked in Chinese startups and in Chinese academia. People are bright, high-skilled, and motivated. There are great visioners like Allen Zhang or Frank Wong. Only a few entrepreneurs take advantage of CCP regulations. Many of them claim that the party negatively affect the investment and business climate in the country.

Re: An update on YC China

#370

Post by ivalm »

aguyfromnb wrote: post #328
ivalm wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they overtly offend China this would negatively impact YC current portfolio companies, discourage current/future LP, and other make their business more difficult. So they went with an intermediate approach.

> If they overtly offend China this would negatively impact YC current portfolio companies Don't you see that this mentality is exactly the problem? Some of these comments are really surprising.

I agree with you. It's a tragedy of the commons, no one want to be "the one" who offends China if all their competitors do not. It's the same thing that drove the mad rush for Chinese market share.

However, despite realizing this problem, it is not clear what to do about it. Clearly, YC did not choose to become leaders on the issue.

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