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Every American Car Brand Is on the Bottom Half of CR's Reliability Rankings

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Re: Every American Car Brand Is on the Bottom Half of CR's Reliability Rankings

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of Tesla's problems seem related to the other parts of the car: doors, seats, suspension, etc. They are probably the best electric powertrain company in the world, but still not that great at being a car company.

A lot of those parts are from third party suppliers (not that it excuses Tesla completely of course). I watched a video some time ago, where Musk was complaining that the big automotive parts suppliers simply didn't take Tesla seriously, and therefore it led to quality issues, in the video it was the quality of the sun flaps. It's probably due to Tesla shipping much lower volumes, and the big suppliers not being fami…

> A lot of those parts are from third party suppliers (not that it excuses Tesla completely of course).

What makes you think that other automaker aren't using third party suppliers? Borgwarner, Denso, etc... are all third party suppliers that many company uses.

After the recession of 2008, many third party suppliers went bankrupt. There is a consolidation of third party so now many automaker share similar parts among each other.

Even the new Supra, Toyota tested the BMW engine and ask BMW to change some stuff.

It still up to Tesla to test the reliability.

Re: Every American Car Brand Is on the Bottom Half of CR's Reliability Rankings

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

those are common in Europe too. A Thermostat is nice but it does not solve the "first water" problem. A shower will always run cold at first.

I guess it's a regional thing, the single "US" faucet is something I guess no one in Slovakia or Czech Republic has seen. I remember when we were on a first US business trip and it was hilarious to find out that I was not the only one of the group who tried to find Youtube videos how to control that thing and also to switch between the shower head and the tap. The second thing was that after having a shower I wanted…

Those are common in U.S. hotels but virtually unheard of in homes. Most U.S. homes have separate hot & cold knobs running through a single faucet/showerhead, with a knob or switch to select shower vs. tub. First time I ran into the single-control shower, it took me a while to figure out how to work it as well, and I've lived in the U.S. my whole life. It was pre-YouTube as well, so I just had to fidget with it.

I've seen the thermostatic faucets before (I assume those're the ones where you twist to adjust temperature & pull to adjust pressure). They show up in more modern upscale hotels, and in people's homes when they've remodeled their bathroom. I think they tend to be an aftermarket add-on rather than a typical part of construction, though - no idea why, they're much more convenient than the alternatives.

Re: Every American Car Brand Is on the Bottom Half of CR's Reliability Rankings

#363
Isn't this just stack ranking? Hasn't that always been a terrible way to measure quality?

Every car, especially American makes, are drastically improved from even just a few years ago. Being in the bottom half in 2019 is a completely different story from being in the bottom half in 1999, or 1969.

Re: Every American Car Brand Is on the Bottom Half of CR's Reliability Rankings

#364
post #363

Isn't this just stack ranking? Hasn't that always been a terrible way to measure quality? Every car, especially American makes, are drastically improved from even just a few years ago. Being in the bottom half in 2019 is a completely different story from being in the bottom half in 1999, or 1969.

you're not going to get any clicks with THAT headline :)

Re: Every American Car Brand Is on the Bottom Half of CR's Reliability Rankings

#365

Is this new? I'd be curious to know the last time it wasn't true, outside of Tesla. I'm guessing you'd have to go back to the 60s or early 70s. I actually think US cars have improved tremendously in the last decade, though.

they have improved. the measure in the article is relative reliability. Almost any car now is more reliable than the best cars from 30 years ago.

Re: Every American Car Brand Is on the Bottom Half of CR's Reliability Rankings

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're much simpler but they're still complicated and you still require experience to design and build properly. Tesla was too busy breaking the rules to stop and think about why things may have been done a certain way.

I think it is a fallacy that EVs are simpler. You have just moved mechanical regulators to software so the complexity is hidden. I.e. instead of a timing belt you have an inverter etc. Instead of a water pump driven by a belt you habe an electrical pump cooling the batteries and motor.

That's a fair point that transitioning from hardware complexity to software complexity isn't making the design inherently simpler, but at the same time the software to manage an electric car doesn't have to be complex. Modern electric cars are complex because the manufacturers have chosen to make them so.

Electric motors are fundamentally simpler than gasoline engines, and motor controllers, charge control systems, and battery management systems aren't particularly complicated either, especially when compared to a modern engine and all its emission-control apparatuses.

I hope some manufacturer at some point decides to actually build a simple electric car for the mainstream market, with no over-the-air updates, no self-driving, no location tracking, no touchscreen infotainment system, or any of that. Just an FM radio and an aux port, and the minimum amount of software and hardware to manage the motor and battery and airbags and anti-lock brakes.

Re: Every American Car Brand Is on the Bottom Half of CR's Reliability Rankings

#367

I'm an American and I will probably never buy another American made car again until we switch to EV. Time for anecdotes! I'm in the process of changing our families vehicles: I've sold our Toyota Tundra and purchased a Toyota Sequoia, and I'm currently selling our Honda CR-V and will be downsizing to a Toyota Matrix or Honda Fit. The Tundra has been one of the most amazing vehicles I've ever owned. I bought it used w…

I'll call you anecdote with one of my own. I've put the same 40,000 miles in the same 5 years on my '01 GMC Sierra and have had no issues besides a power steering pump when I bought it and regular maintenance. I'll probably sell it after New year's and I'm not sure if it's a quirk in my area, the going rate is the same as what I paid 5 years ago. A regular maintenance schedule does wonders for the reliability of a ve…

>A regular maintenance schedule does wonders for the reliability of a vehicle.

So much this. I have an entire fleet (7) of 25+yo shitboxes including three of one model (so my observations are fairly scientific). Amount of shit that breaks is proportional to how hard of a life each vehicle lived regardless of brand.

Toyota and Honda cost a little more up front and they don't do crazy financing deals so the people with a 350 credit score and barely enough to make the down payment don't wind up owning them so they get maintained and rarely get used hard This makes them hold a little value better so the people who are gonna be hard on them don't buy them on the used market.

Meanwhile the kind of person who buys a Journey because it is the cheapest thing with three rows doesn't maintain it until it cannot function without maintenance and uses it for literally any task it can possibly accomplish. That's a hard life. One 4Runner year is like 7 Journey years.

It's all a self feeding cycle. Vehicle reliability outside of the first part of the bathtub curve is simply a reflection of how it's treated and that's a reflection of who owns it. The longer a vehicle can stay high in the socio-economic ladder the longer it will live an easy life.

This pattern holds even if you take brand and model out of the equation. Look on Craigslist for 1990s Ford SUVs. You will see a lot of Eddie Baur trim ones relative to the number of Eddie Baur ones that were actually sold back in the day. This is because that's the most expensive trim and the people who bought those had the disposable income to maintain them so they hit the used market in nicer condition, were bought by relatively more wealthy people and so on and so forth.

Re: Every American Car Brand Is on the Bottom Half of CR's Reliability Rankings

#368

Some years ago, I heard it told that the American car companies had done the market research and found that the typical car-buyer in the US bought a car and kept it for 3 years, on average. And so, armed with this info, the cars were designed to last 3 years on average. This is also why the 3-year lease is a thing. Now, I don't know how true this is, or what definition of "average" was being used in those statements…

I'm sure they're built to last more than 3 years. And even if the first buyer wants to trade it in after 3 years, they should expect it to still be in good condition so they can get a good price on resale/trade-in. If it was really designed to only last 3 years, their total cost of ownership in those 3 years would be much higher than a car that lasted longer due to depreciation.

Re: Every American Car Brand Is on the Bottom Half of CR's Reliability Rankings

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

those are common in Europe too. A Thermostat is nice but it does not solve the "first water" problem. A shower will always run cold at first.

Also - there is almost no cold water if I switch on the shower. That's because (at least in new houses) there is a closed circle for warm water and the heating system cycles the warm water (2 pipes of warm water + 1 pipe of cold water for each water outlet) in the pipes to keep it ready for use. You have instant warm water.

> You have instant warm water.

You should try Arizona in the summer next time you're in the USA - we have instant hot water 24/7 - even our cold water is hot.

Yes - I'm serious. In the summertime, our water from the "cold side" is typically luke-warmish at best. From the hot side, we can actually turn the temperature down on our water heaters and save some money.

It gets a bit better during "winter" (in quotes because right now, the temperature is around 32C - yep, shorts weather in the middle of November!).

Anyhow - you can purchase the tankless circulation system you describe, but it isn't cheap so you only usually see it on new houses, and only as an upgrade. Retrofitting old houses just isn't really possible without a complete interior teardown. The only other option is tankless water heaters, but those require a decent electrical circuit to each sink. So, most of us just have the central water heater tank, and when we want hot water, we turn it on and let it run (ain't like the water is going to disappear, thanks to the "water cycle"). Or we deal with the cold water (except here in Arizona - where again, our cold water is warm).

Re: Every American Car Brand Is on the Bottom Half of CR's Reliability Rankings

#370

Its not a direct comparison, but having owned cars from Japan, the US, and Germany, watching the videos of cars being made by the major manufacturers makes the difference somewhat obvious. I've linked them below, but just looking at the factory processes, the workers, and the methods used it seems the German process is just designed to build cars with tighter tolerances. The cars don't move down assembly lines with h…

German cars tend to be less reliable than Japanese ones, as in this survey, possibly due to those tolerance. My 2018 German car feels a lot nicer than a 2018 Toyota, but has already had more problems, too. :| Sometimes I wonder if the US auto industry suffers a bit competitively vs Germany and Japan due to a higher amount of "brain drain" to other higher-paying forms of STEM jobs in tech.

American cars had a lot of problems before software engineering brain drain was much of a thing.
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