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Terminating Service for 8Chan

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Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#361
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This feels like a misunderstanding of the word freedom. Freedom in speech means that I can say what I want. It does _not_ mean that a hosting company has to host it or that a CDN has to optimize it or that a search company has to rank it or that an ad-network has to monetize it. Each of those players is free to do what they think is best with their time, resources, etc.; which often includes thinking of what "the pub…

Should that mean a power company can cut off your power because they don't like what you've said? Should that mean the water company can cut your water off for criticizing them? Should that mean that a bank can refuse to give you a loan, because you said something bad, even if your credit is more than acceptable? ------------------------------- Remember this: its the extremist that the law is made around. And soon en…

> Should that mean a power company can cut off your power because they don't like what you've said?

No. Because they are a public utility and that would be a violation of the first amendment.

> Should that mean that a bank can refuse to give you a loan, because you said something bad, even if your credit is more than acceptable?

Yes. Because they are a private institution and not obligated to do business with you.

There are very simple rules at play here...

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

*so in that sense, the media is juicing its numbers thats all they're doing >public is not made aware of this very tragic problem everyone is quite aware of what the problems are, many view the children murdered during Sandy Hook as the end of the conversation. The decisions were made. most first world countries have solved these problems, the US meanwhile... ‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regu…

Think about this event for 1 minute: He drove for -9- hours. NINE HOURS. Do you think it would take less than 9 hours to pour some diesel fuel on fertilizer and flatten the entire WalMart? People will just move on to other weapons: knives, bombs, etc. Norway has very restrictive gun laws. Breivik managed to get enough fertilizer to make a bomb that was mostly a distraction, but still sent 8 people to grave and injure…

What's your prescription for reducing US homicide death to European levels?

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#363

" they have proven themselves to be lawless and that lawlessness has caused multiple tragic deaths ." What insane nonsense. Whatever motivates mass murderers caused the deaths, not where they posted. They get rewarded with tons of attention from all forms of media, too. Just kill a minimum number of people to get the popularity in the corporate and social media they otherwise wouldn't ever earn. They revel in it. 8ch…

That's an unstable equilibrium. Good luck thought policing thousands upon thousands of journalists, each of them has an incentive to defect and get more eye balls that competition, and make more money and name for themselves. Never going to happen, until we have full blown censorship and you only read double-plus good happy time stories. Is that what you really want?

"Good luck thought policing thousands upon thousands of journalists"

Except you're ignoring the fact that the corporate media already does that. It seems to work well enough, too. It helps that "journalists" are mostly a thing of the past with today's reporters often just doing the minimum to check things when they're not just repeating whatever the current fad is. That's extremely popular, too. Most stories are whatever people in target demographic are either what people want to say yes to or hate on. We're already there.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mass shootings (generally) don't kill that many people. They are scary, yes, but not that deadly (statistically). Keep it local news, don't The problem is there is a simmering domestic nationalistic terrorism threat to the country - and that is news. The killer in TX directly referenced it, as did very many of the prior mass-murders of recent. That is noteworthy, and fundamentally different from people killed in a…

This is a strong feeling you have, but I see no evidence for it. The media likes to talk more about ultra nationalist groups now than it did in the past, giving some sense that it's growing into a big problem, but where is the actual evidence. Seems more like a big narrative push, a puff of smoke in everyone's eyes. By many studies Americans overall are far less racist and more tolerant than they ever were. Things ar…

I’d argue that the effort spent hunting Muslim terrorists at borders, museums, transit hubs etc is not justified when compared to the relative death toll from domestic ultranationalists/white supremacists.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#365

This post repeatedly refers to 8chan as "lawless" and "unmoderated" but it is neither. As a whole, it is a public website subject to US law, complete with DMCA and search warrant contact forms. The sitewide rule is that all content must comply with US law. The media also keeps saying 8chan, 8chan, 8chan over and over, when it is really just the one most popular board ("pol") that is being discussed. But there are hun…

> This seems like a knee-jerk reaction to moral panic and bad PR

I’m not so sure. We “ban” drug markets and terrorist groups by denying them access to infrastructure all the time. Private businesses get to decide which businesses they provide services to. Freedom of assembly doesn’t mean you get to live in a trash strewn public square, nor on private property that is leeching toxic waste into the surroundings.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#366

Free speech is a cultural value. It sometimes manifests itself in the form of codified laws like the first amendment to the US Constitution. However, free speech is not limited to the USA. The idea behind free speech is that people are allowed to put forward new ideas ( especially ideas about how to organize society, what is good and moral etc ) so that people can consider and accept or reject them. The idea is that…

One thing I learned by watching US culture warfare in recent years, is any value have a limit to it. If it has been codified or been treated as absolute and untouchable, then it becomes its own weakness.

So does free speech. Certain speech that are known to cause violent result/response from its audience should be dealt with carefully. In which case, if 8chan has popularized itself as the platform to announce when and where to kill innocent people, and broadcast such message to its susceptible audience to follow, then to me it feels like indifference or dysfunction of a community to have it slip through under the umbrella of 'free speech'.

When you know you are ill, just take medication, not just set in vain to wait for your immune system to ultimately cure yourself.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#367
post #79

Tor's onion service will always there to provide hosting to the less popular ideas. The censorship-resistant network is there. Make sure to give it some love. Last time I checked, people were discussing how to murder, exchanging nazi manifestos and conspiracy theories. I was looking for anarchist discussions but I actually ended up having these on reddit. Don't get fooled by the current positioning of IT firms, it on…

> I actually ended up having these on reddit I am actually quite surprised how complicit the media is in not reporting what goes on Reddit. It's the one place on the "mainstream" internet I run into where you can see calls for political assassinations in default subs, sub-reddits devoted to theft, ethno-nationalism, terrorism, and all sorts of content that makes 4chan seem tame in comparison. Then there is the huge c…

Reddit is an independent subsidiary of Condé Nast's parent company, Advance Publications. They are a large part of what is commonly referred to as "the media." Just sayin.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#368

When I was younger I thought I was a few speech absolutist. Then I went to where was free speech was absolute and saw what was discussed. Now I favor moderation.

Of course, the only bad speech is speech you personally dislike?

I feel that an easy rule to apply is that speech about hurting or even killing others is unambiguously bad speech

Everything else is up for debate. But this single exception I hope every human being can agree on.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#369
> we are terminating 8chan as a customer

Probably a good idea, if only to send the message that there is a limit to how much garbage you can allow people to dump on your site before the neighbors decide to do whatever it takes stop the terrible smell.

> The Rule of Law requires policies be transparent and consistent.

That's great! Most tech companies seem to prefer the Rule of Men where they try to fix problems behind the scenes with obscured methods and inconsistent (and often arbitrary) policies.

> Cloudflare is not a government.

While technically true, as your control of infrastructure approaches monopoly, you tend to acquire more and more government-like traits. At a functional level, "is a government" is not a Boolean value.

> that does not give us the political legitimacy to make determinations on what content is good and bad

That's true, but your success in the market ("a result of that, a huge portion of the Internet now sits behind our network") gives you a lot of power to make that kind of determination. If that power isn't managed carefully (e.g. with a consistent and transparent Rule of Law), it is easy to accidentally use that power in dangerous or irresponsible ways. The fact that you're even talking about a Rule of Law means you're already acting far more responsibly than most big tech companies.

> We will ... engage with lawmakers ... as they set the boundaries of what is acceptable ... through [their] due process of law. And we will comply with those boundaries when and where they are set.

(I'm interpreting "[their] due process of law" as referring to the lawmaker's process, not something implemented internal to Cloudflare. If this is incorrect, ignore this section)

Engaging with lawmakers (and other relevant organizations) is incredibly important. I would expect any company that wants to act lawfully to comply with legislated regulations. It is also important to realize that governments are often slow. You cannot simply abdicate responsibility to the government when you de facto have significant power over and involvement with a problem.

> We ... have an obligation to help propose solutions

Yes, proposing solutions is part of that obligation. If you really are concerned with creating Rule of Law, then you also have to act in ways consistent with that goal. If you're going beyond the limits of an uninvolved/neutral "common carrier" and terminating a customer for reasons unrelated to the technical services you provide, you need to make sure you have and follow your own "due process", while the lawmaker's solution is still pending and/or incomplete.

> What's hard is defining the policy that we can enforce transparently and consistently going forward.

I agree that this is very hard. It's also an obligation you accepted when you decided to take responsibility (and profits) for a large piece of infrastructure that many people now rely on. This is where transparency can help a lot; it's a lot easier to ask for forgiveness for a mistake if you have a reputation of openly explaining your reasoning.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#370
post #131
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've kicked people off their service before for content based reasons (eg, Daily Stormer), so this changes nothing. In any case: > I thought there was some sort of legal distinction if they were totally agnostic to what travels over their wires. Is that not the case? Not as far as I'm aware, no. The closest thing I can think of is if they were discriminating based on people's membership in a protected class, eg, i…

They've also removed sex worker websites (including a forum that was just sex workers talking to each other), but for some reason no one complains about it.

Interesting, never heard about that. Are there are other things too?
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