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France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

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Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#361

Post by michaelt »

uasm wrote: post #314
aplummer wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Foreign businesses providing entirely digital services in France aren't actually receiving any kind of service back from the French government. In other words, this specific tax is just a mechanism for collecting money arbitrarily in exchange for nothing. You've just ignored all the above posts without addressing them. The other posts make it clear without any counter argument from you that government provides a sa…

> The other posts make it clear without any counter argument from you that government provides a safe and stable addressable market to do business (and literally the currency). How does a government quantify providing "a safe and stable addressable market to do business"? What was the formula used to determine the tax bracket? Unless we have a clear formula we can reason about, the tax would be arbitrary. Is that not…

Of course tax is arbitrary. Just look at the chicken tax [1] which despite its name, is a tax on light trucks - unless they're shipped to the US with extra seats which the dealer removes before the truck is sold.

If you're looking for a simple and logically designed system, the international tax system isn't it.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#362

Post by dredmorbius »

mc32 wrote: post #299
avip wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies raise prices based on demand curve, not cost.

That’s not what they say when the subject of tariffs comes up. “We’ll have to pass it on to consumers”.

Economic facts pay little heed to economic rhetoric.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#363

Post by delinka »

fzeroracer wrote: post #306
colpabar wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but assume they somehow pass the tax 100% onto the customer. So now French citizens are the ones paying for the "right to the free market" of their own country. Does that seem fair?

This typically doesn't happen. Companies don't pass the increases in taxes 100% to the consumer. By that argument all taxes would be immoral since they directly increase the prices consumers pay. Now we can argue as to how much said tax is passed onto the consumer and whether or not the additional tax revenue towards various social services offsets the hit. Which is an important distinction to make when choosing what…

Companies don't receive money from the ether. They receive money from their customers. Ergo, 100% of taxes paid by companies are indeed paid by customers. Any increase will indeed be passed on to the customer. Any decrease in profits to the company is temporary and will be made up by the customers in the near (if not immediate) future. Companies won't just sit idly by while their profits decrease due to tax - they'll "innovate" their business method, or change the company organization, or restructure their pricing to 'hide' the increase.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#364

Post by scottlocklin »

colpabar wrote: post #287
baby wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's up to them to figure out where's the right trade off to maximize their gains.

Sure, but assume they somehow pass the tax 100% onto the customer. So now French citizens are the ones paying for the "right to the free market" of their own country. Does that seem fair?

Seems fine to me. Maybe it will make local businesses more competitive with Bezos airdropping junk from 747s powered with dolphin oil.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#365

Post by harperlee »

uasm wrote: post #304
ineedasername wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>so any type of tax is justified? That's a straw man. You're leaping from "some type of tax is justified" which is quite a bit more reasonable than "any tax". And if you want to say it's a slippery slope or some such, well, ever single action if extrapolated to the extreme can be a viewed as such. If 3% is reasonable and then it's proposed to goes up and up, fight the increase, not the initial reasonable action. Of c…

> "That's a straw man." No, it isn't. Road tax pays for road maintenance. Municipal tax pays for municipal maintenance. VAT and Income Tax pay for government expenditure. Taxes are collected in exchange for a service. Foreign businesses providing entirely digital services in France aren't actually receiving any kind of service back from the French government. In other words, this specific tax is just a mechanism for…

In spanish we have two different words: tasa is what you are describing: a tasa is imposed to pay for a specific thing. Whereas an impuesto is a different thing that is simply put in a common account to pay for everything that is public, in whatever way the government sees fit. No need to link source and destination.

Think of it backwards: if we agree that X level of taxes need to be gathered to maintain common good, the government needs to gather it in the least unjust way possible. Taxing internet giants, to europeans, seem mostly just.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#366

Post by bacon_waffle »

forty wrote: post #346
bko wrote: post #15

I never understood the logic behind taxing large internet businesses. The idea behind taxes is that you use some public resource and you pay for that service. You own a home in a neighborhood, you pay property tax that funds the schools. You drive a car, you pay gasoline tax that funds the streets. You hire workers locally, you pay the tax to pay back all the contributions public institutions made to adding the skill…

It's simple, in France there is this idea that everyone should contribute to "national solidarity" according to how much they can afford. Internet giant are very rich so they should contribute a lot, and currently there is a sentiment that they don't contribute as much as they should, so this law is simply starting to fix that.

And it's a bit rich that, at the same time the US is unhappy with France france over this, the US is imposing on the French economy via FATCA and FBAR.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#367

Post by yndoendo »

colpabar wrote: post #310
forty wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(replying to sibling) Some do. Source: I'm French and I do :)

Out of curiosity, would you say most French people think the same way? I ask because I'm American and we really hate taxes here.

"Do you like paying taxes?", is question politicians abuse frequently because it is an easy question for your system 1 to answer and creates an emotional response.

"Do you think that taxes are being used properly?" is a better question, since having roads to drive on or unemployment if you get let go from a job are quite useful; both are taxes. This is a harder question to answer and reduces the emotional response they are looking for.

That is not even a dive into economic inequality; Person A having 10 personal homes in three different countries while Person B lives out of their car pay-check by pay-check.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#368

Post by dpatru »

ripdog wrote: post #28
bko wrote: post #15

I never understood the logic behind taxing large internet businesses. The idea behind taxes is that you use some public resource and you pay for that service. You own a home in a neighborhood, you pay property tax that funds the schools. You drive a car, you pay gasoline tax that funds the streets. You hire workers locally, you pay the tax to pay back all the contributions public institutions made to adding the skill…

Those large tech companies can make money in France because the french government provides all that is necessary for a free, fair and functioning market. How could Google make money in France if there was no french police force, education system, market regulation, court system, contract enforcement? All money made on the white market in any country is facilitated by that government, and taxes are paid on all profits…

A free market transaction benefits both parties; both buyer and seller feel like they are better off as a result, otherwise they would not agree to the sale. Therefore, just as the French government can say that the American company is benefiting from French citizens, so the American government can claim that the French citizens are benefiting from American companies. A tax by either government inserts friction into the transaction and makes the deal less profitable on the party or parties that pay for the tax.

The French government is taxing businesses not because this is somehow morally right or efficient, but because it is easier than convincing its subjects/citizens that government services merit higher personal taxes.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#369

Post by robertAngst »

bko wrote: post #15

I never understood the logic behind taxing large internet businesses. The idea behind taxes is that you use some public resource and you pay for that service. You own a home in a neighborhood, you pay property tax that funds the schools. You drive a car, you pay gasoline tax that funds the streets. You hire workers locally, you pay the tax to pay back all the contributions public institutions made to adding the skill…

> But again arbitrarily punishing or helping some corporations opens up the possibility of corruption and corporate meddling as corporations look for favors.

Like it or not, but this is designed into politics.

Its just as dirty and evil as it sounds.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#370

Post by AdrianB1 »

braythwayt wrote: post #359
AdrianB1 wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flaw of this argument that government is selling services is that the government is not selling, it is forcibly collecting money for some vague promises of services. When you buy something in the store the owner doesn't point a gun at your head asking for the money.

Your reply is a great example of why talking about taxes in an open forum is often a waste of time. We start with a discussion about whether this one particular tax is reasonable or unreasonable because of jurisdiction issues, and before long you realize that a bunch of the people arguing against that tax don't really care about the jurisdiction issue, their real agenda is that they don't want any taxes, any governme…

You made the point of the government selling services, not about France taxes. I responded to that point.
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