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At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

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Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#361

Post by jjeaff »

athenot wrote: post #252
bko wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am increasingly surprised that this system is still supported, instead of one that costs less and provides more So you're for decreasing the amount of public spending on health care in the US?

Making healthcare more expensive doesn't make it better. As an example, the price of Clopidogrel (Plavix), developped in France is sold 5x more expensive in the US than in France. Do patients in the US experience better outcomes by paying more? No, it's the same drug. "Providing more" for healthcare, means better overall health, fewer avoidable deaths and longer life expectancy.

Presumably, the makers of Plavix had an estimate of what they could sell the drug for in the US. It's possible it would not have been a viable investment if they weren't able to sell it for 5x in the US. This never bringing it to market.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#362

Post by danans »

swebs wrote: post #241
Pyxl101 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please also consider the rates at which different population groups commit serious crimes, such as murder and rape. We are talking about prison populations after all - people convicted of minor drug offenses like possession are a small percent of the prison population. The publication "Homicide Trends in the United States" by the US Department of Justice has crime data broken down by race, for example. See pages 11 a…

>In 2008, the [homicide] offending rate for blacks (24.7 offenders per 100,000) was 7 times higher than the rate for whites (3.4 offenders per 100,000) Wow, why is that so high?

It's complex, and defies simplistic explanations (so don't believe simplistic explanations if you see/hear them).

An attempt at a nuanced explanation (which undoubtedly misses a ton of factors):

Huge disparities in overall wealth and income, coupled with geographic segregation and isolation of a lot of the black population in areas of concentrated poverty, and the associated lack of access to social goods, such as public safety and good schools. The combined effects of poverty/segregation/isolation are specifically reflected in the fact that 78% of homicides involve people who know each other [1]. People who know each other killing each other is a result of the breakdown of community structures that would disincentivize that behavior. There have to be powerful incentives for someone to kill someone that they know, considering that the potential consequences are so severe (incarceration, violent retribution, etc). Often the perpetrators have very little (in wealth, community, etc) to lose, which also increases the incentive.

Another group that are similarly economically poor, Latinos, but due to a different history, have more intact community structures, don't have as high a rate of violent crime.

[1] https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf (Table 8)

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#363

Post by insertcredit »

perfmode wrote: post #358
insertcredit wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cause of the black-white IQ gap is not relevant to this thread - not sure why you brought it up - . The fact is that the gap exists and of course one would expect it to exist in the US prison population too thus the rest of my argument naturally follows. The crux of the matter being that rehabilitation works for Norway today but wouldn't work for US (today-near future). Cultural changes to raise IQs enough to be…

Do you know there are black people on this site?

Is this relevant to the discussion? Does it change anything of what I wrote and referenced? Why do you keep bringing it up?

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#364

Post by manfredo »

minikites wrote: post #157
AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will always be an activist group which will tell you that forcing people work is inhumane and violates their freedom of expression.

By "an activist group" do you mean "people against actual slavery"?

Calling servitude as punishment "actual slavery" is disingenuous to the point that I'm willing to call it a lie. You can't buy and sell them. You don't have them indefinitely. When they reproduce your don't own their offspring. They get sentenced to this servitude by society's justice system, not captured through conquest or purchased from foreign lands.

Calling labor as punishment "actual slavery" is incredibly dismissive of actual slaves.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#365

Post by sangnoir »

charlesbradshaw wrote: post #281
foobarian wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel the difference is that Norway is far more homogeneous and the intent to rehabilitate is sincere. On the other hand I feel like a lot of the criminal justice system in the USA is segregationist under the covers. When you look at it this way then it's working as desired.

What does homogeneous have to do with prison rehabilitation? I'm not attacking you, genuinely curious.

The unstated argument to all the homogeneity arguments I've come across (intended or not) is: "We are too bigoted for that to work here, we'd never allow the $OUTGROUP to have it that good", with a side-dish of "they'd be bigoted too, if they weren't homogeneous". When laid bare, it's an appeal to ignorance.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#366

Post by sangnoir »

CalRobert wrote: post #299
charlesbradshaw wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does homogeneous have to do with prison rehabilitation? I'm not attacking you, genuinely curious.

If I think "that guy/girl in prison could be my neighbour, cousin, god help me even my kid" I will care about them and want them to be rehabilitated. They're a relatable person to me. If I think "it's one of those people from the other side of the tracks" it won't feel like a person with whom I could have a close connection. I might not care as much. Not saying it's a good thing, though.

> I might not care as much

I'd say you would care too much! (abstract/general 'you', not @CalRobert). The problem any sort of reform faces is antipathy, not apathy.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#367

Post by deburo »

anilakar wrote: post #112
vkhorikov wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that you can point to cases where free market does work.

Whoosh. Luckily I have karma to burn. If there is a real free market where consumers have a real choice, it can be argued that the system works, even if it's a race to the bottom. Even you indirectly admitted that most markets aren't free. There are numerous cases where "socialism" (as laissez-faire Americans like to define it) achieves its goals better and cheaper, like healthcare and pretty much all natural monopol…

It's not obvious to me how subsidized healthcare is both better and cheaper in all cases. It certainly makes it more accessible for everybody, but that also has many downsides here in Quebec, including a very long wait-list for many types of surgeries, long wait-time for urgent care, many doctors/hospital staff are overburdened, or so I hear through the news.

I've also been meaning to read more on how the pharmaceutic industry works in the states, if the high prices on drugs are fair or not. Because even though prices may be high, it doesn't necessarily follow that the companies setting those prices are gouging people/being greedy, as many people claim.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#368

Post by sangnoir »

simonh wrote: post #338
insertcredit wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The black-white IQ gap in the US is not scientifically disputed. [1] US prisons are ~38% black. [2] Norwegian prisons aren't. Not to mention that in general, and without taking into account race, you don't expect the brightest to be in there. Ergo average IQ in US prisons being much lower than in Norwegian prisons. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#United_S... [2] https://www.bop.gov/about/stati…

It's disputed that it's due to race, there's a good argument that it's due to culture and culture can change.

I think an even better argument (than 'culture') can be made for socio-economic factors (nutrition, environment, healthcare, etc). There's an "IQ gap" between poor and rich people.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#369

Post by renholder »

lb1lf wrote: post #175
dalbasal wrote: post #126

I think it's worth thinking about the history of incarceration, for context. Until fairly recently, prison wasn't really the way most punishments worked. They did hangings, beatings, shaming, banishment... Imprisoning people long term is expensive, and kings probably couldn't have afforded anything like a modern scale prison system. The closest thing was more slavery than imprisonment, and economically self-sufficien…

Rehabilitation IS societally useful. However, it does require that the prime focus is rehabilitation rather than punishment. In my native Norway, rehabilitation has been the focus to such an extent that foreign media come to do stories on the 'holiday camps' prison time is served in. It somehow works, though. Recidivism is very low. Here's a few examples on how inmates do their time -Education is encouraged - whether…

>Rehabilitation IS societally useful.

This is very true. As an example, recidivism in Sweden is around 40%[0], compared to around 68%[1] in the states.

[0] - https://www.bra.se/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statistics/...

[1] - https://www.bjs.gov/content/reentry/recidivism.cfm

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#370

Post by ausjke »

Why can't you just _force_ them to work and pay for their own meals in the prison? I'm not saying to make profit out of them, but at least they should work to survive, like the rest of us.

They committed a crime, and then losing their freedom(got locked up), but that does not mean the rest law-abiding citizens shall provide all free lodging for them! This is ridiculous.

So often the human rights group care more about criminals' rights while ignoring the ordinary Joe that is working hard to make ends meet by following all the rules.

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