Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon • Hacker News Board

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#361

Post by fcarraldo » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 5:29 PM UTC

duxup wrote: post #263

earenndil wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies that seemed to genuinely support net neutrality Which companies were those? Netflix and google both made statements that they support net neutrality, but I didn't see them lift a finger to do anything about it: it seems to have been mostly a pr move.

That's my point. I don't feel like we've seen tech companies really lobby on a level where there is any impact on the national level.

FAANG are outlobbying most other industries, they're just doing it to influence issues that aren't currently gathering much scrutiny or media attention.

> Google said it lobbied on dozens of issues, reflecting how integral its services have become to American lives and commerce. The filing cited privacy, data security, antitrust, taxes, tariffs, trade, the opioid crisis, artificial intelligence, cloud computing, autonomous vehicles, immigration, the future of work, encryption and national security.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-22/google-se...

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#362

Post by AnthonyMouse » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 5:29 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #259

confounded wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, while FAANG occasionally do things I don’t approve of, they don’t actively lobby congress for things that will make my use of the internet objectively worse (NN, SOPA, etc...). Is this true? It depends on your use of the internet and definitions of “worse”, but I know that both Google and Facebook have been strong opponents of state-level Internet privacy legislation. They also spend huge amounts on lobbying,…

Alphabet spends about 50-75% more than Verizon or Comcast on lobbying. Which is amazing considering they’re not in a regulated industry. When you’re in a regulated industry, regulators micro-manage your business so there is a lot of lobbying involved dealing with relatively mundane and uncontroversial things. Not big picture stuff, but like cities vetoing fiber nodes because they’re ugly. Tech companies don’t deal wi…

> Tech companies don’t deal with that, so it’s amazing they manage to spend more.

It's not really that surprising, because they're not only affected by it but on multiple fronts.

There was a time when Google spent hardly anything on lobbying. Meanwhile Hollywood was promoting things like SOPA, Microsoft was at one point operating a major anti-Google lobbying campaign, ISPs want to violate network neutrality, etc.

It's one thing to not want to fight, something else to not respond when provoked.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#363

Post by CPLX » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 5:29 PM UTC

davidgay wrote: post #337

CPLX wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument that there won't be incentives for success is and has always been ludicrous. It's not based in any kind of empirical reality, just on an emotional theory that people won't work if you tax them more, and an Ayn Rand novel or two. The reality is that people compete for status, success, money, and power, within the framework they are given. I mean we've actually tried this. If you take a group of incredibly…

I'm not sure that a country without capital gain taxes (Switzerland) is the best example for highly taxing successful business founders...

True, but also the Swiss have a direct tax on corporate capital, a VAT, a policy of taxing capital gains as regular old income for professional investors, plus many other subtleties and differences that don't fit on a bumper sticker. I think my point stands.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#364

Post by gottebp » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 5:29 PM UTC

psadauskas wrote: post #211

How about going after Comcast and Verizon first, the actual tech monopolies ? I already don’t use Facebook, I buy things online from places other than Amazon, and have email accounts that aren’t hosted by Google. However, all of that goes over Comcast’s network because that’s my only viable choice for Internet service. Also, while FAANG occasionally do things I don’t approve of, they don’t actively lobby congress for…

In addition:

We had 27 large banks in the early 90's. These have merged into four enormous ones today [0].

We had 50 media corporations in the early 80's. They have merged into six today [1].

[0] https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-banking-oligopoly-in-on...

[1] https://www.businessinsider.com/these-6-corporations-control...

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#365

Post by wolco » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 5:30 PM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #227

psadauskas wrote: post #211

How about going after Comcast and Verizon first, the actual tech monopolies ? I already don’t use Facebook, I buy things online from places other than Amazon, and have email accounts that aren’t hosted by Google. However, all of that goes over Comcast’s network because that’s my only viable choice for Internet service. Also, while FAANG occasionally do things I don’t approve of, they don’t actively lobby congress for…

Can you avoid using services that run on AWS, though? Or avoid sites that advertise and get analytics from Google? These companies are so dangerous not only because of their consumer-facing services, but the fact that they've made themselves an integral part of our online infrastructure.

When visiting a site you have the choice to visit or not. Site owners have the choice of what to put up and how to host it.

That's like asking the government to break up the react framework because more sites are using it and you have no jquery option.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#366

Post by thwythwy » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 5:30 PM UTC

psadauskas wrote: post #211

How about going after Comcast and Verizon first, the actual tech monopolies ? I already don’t use Facebook, I buy things online from places other than Amazon, and have email accounts that aren’t hosted by Google. However, all of that goes over Comcast’s network because that’s my only viable choice for Internet service. Also, while FAANG occasionally do things I don’t approve of, they don’t actively lobby congress for…

"How about going after Comcast and Verizon first, the actual tech monopolies?"

Haha, the actual "but no, because" is that Comcast and Verizon said "why not the platforms first" in response to net neutrality.

Regulating one of these industries isn't at all in any way whatsoever in a first-second relationship with doing the same to the other industry.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#367

Post by burroisolator » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 5:30 PM UTC

mailslot wrote: post #230

fowkswe wrote: post #158

If there has ever been a monopoly, those 3 companies are it. I wont speak for social media and search, but Amazon has a complete stranglehold on retail in the United States. People keep saying 'retail is dead', thats bullshit, Amazon has a monopolistic stranglehold on the selling of all goods. If that weren't the case, small shop brick and mortar shopping would still be a thing.

Amazon isn’t a monopoly the way that AT&T or Comcast are. People have a choice and can easily go to Walmart, Target, or most any other retailers online or at a physical location. In this case, Amazon is winning by out-competing their competition. That’s not monopolistic, it’s winning at competition. Fairly, I might add. One way they’ve grown is by allowing small companies to easily add their products to their stores.…

"Amazon has definitely pioneered online commerce and has excelled at providing a very engaging customer experience and executing the complex supply-chain steps of delivery purchases to consumers. But its success is not the result of that alone. Amazon has also greatly benefited from many years of resolute avoidance of sales tax collection on purchases, giving it an inequitable and potent strategic pricing advantage over bricks-and-mortar retailers that have complied with sales tax requirements. A recent study found that households in states where Amazon collects sales tax reduced their Amazon purchases by eight percent after sales taxes collection was implemented. The effect is more pronounced for large purchases, where the decline was 11 percent. This advantage is slowly coming to an end, but, over the years, it has cost states and cities billions of dollars in lost revenue, while forcing local retailers to compete with one hand tied behind their backs." - https://www.indiebound.org/spotlightamazon

While I believe that Amazon probably would have won regardless of sales taxes, emphasizing "fairly" seems a bit strong.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#368

Post by fedorareis » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 5:31 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #319

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to look at areas where Comcast is the only choice, what the prices and speeds available are there, and the prices and speeds that are suddenly available when a competitor arises. And phone service is not a viable alternative. Even 50gb (the standard cap it seems nowadays before throttling) gets you only 10-20 hours of video at high quality.

Sure, in some areas the lack of ISP competition is particularly acute. But on the flip side, lack of competition in tech is a nationwide problem. I’ve got gigabit through both Verizon and Comcast at my house. It’s much easier for me to switch between the two than for me to switch off gmail (which has years of my emails), or to switch off Facebook (which all my aunts and uncles use). As to cellular—it’s a viable alter…

You are fortunate to be in one of the few areas where there is true ISP competition. For most of the country there is none. Yes, it may be hard to move off of gmail but it isn’t impossible unlike changing high speed internet providers for most of the country. You can leave Facebook and communicate in other ways. I’m sure your aunts and uncles have phones so you could text or call them.

I don’t see how splitting up Apple or Google would increase the number of mobile OSs. There have been companies in the past that have tried building a mobile OS either for a specific phone or as an open source OS and none of them have really gained traction. There have been rumors for a couple years now of some of the phone manufacturers talking about building their own OS to use in place of android, yet those still haven’t appeared. Microsoft failed at mobile because they were too late to the party, people already knew which mobile experience they preferred.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#369

Post by sethhochberg » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 5:32 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #355

psadauskas wrote: post #211

How about going after Comcast and Verizon first, the actual tech monopolies ? I already don’t use Facebook, I buy things online from places other than Amazon, and have email accounts that aren’t hosted by Google. However, all of that goes over Comcast’s network because that’s my only viable choice for Internet service. Also, while FAANG occasionally do things I don’t approve of, they don’t actively lobby congress for…

> However, all of that goes over Comcast’s network because that’s my only viable choice for Internet service. An antitrust breakup of Comcast would be one or both of: 1. splitting off different lines of business, such as the content production parts from the physical cable service part, or 2. splitting them into different companies geographically. Neither of these would do much to increase your ISP options.

...so maybe it is time to finally admit that ISPs are natural monopolies, just like the water company or power company, and regulate them as a utility and ensure that local municipalities who want to provide these services for their residents have a legal path to do so?

The situation right now is so ridiculous that some states have laws outright barring municipal ISPs. If a breakup into regional private monopolies is the stepping stone to reducing ISP influence on government enough to get a more sane legal framework, I'll take it.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#370

Post by drallison » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 5:32 PM UTC

“Today’s big tech companies have too much power — too much power over our economy, our society, and our democracy,” Warren said in a statement. “They’ve bulldozed competition, used our private information for profit, and tilted the playing field against everyone else.”

True. On the other hand, big tech companies are the only agencies that are taking on big problems, social and technical. Break up big tech and many things won't get done. No ubiquitous high speed networks, no practical general purpose artificial intelligence, no indexed access to the world's knowledge, no voice interface minions, and so forth. Government seems unable and unwilling to do the sort of things Big Tech does.

Breaking up big tech seems to be the wrong approach and is likely to be more difficult and more destructive than it would appear at first glance. Better to enlist big tech to cooperate and make the world a better place.