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Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

nytimes.com

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Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#361

Post by 3rdgender »

malvosenior wrote: post #321
roenxi wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never worked in a field where I could compete for a job with a woman, they'd always get first dibs. It is pretty unfair. However a distinction must be made between the formal systems (extremely sexist favouring women), informal systems (potentially extremely sexist favouring men) and workplace environment (women are continuously sexually propositioned; pretty overwhelming evidence for that IMO). Making the forma…

That's a very interesting take. I know as a man, I'd rather work in a place where anyone propositioning someone else would be fired (man or woman) than a place where I may not even get the job because I'm male.

Hope you never fall in love with a coworker.

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#362

Post by 3rdgender »

roenxi wrote: post #298
rhegart wrote: post #154

High school, college, any STEM fields are all overwhelmingly biased in terms of favoring women. 57% of college graduates are women. Men are not only getting the short end of the stick but are being told by every voice that they are privileged, it’s their fault, they are bad whereas women have sooooo many extra programs and positive reinforcement to succeed. No one with a straight face can tell me women in entry level…

I've never worked in a field where I could compete for a job with a woman, they'd always get first dibs. It is pretty unfair. However a distinction must be made between the formal systems (extremely sexist favouring women), informal systems (potentially extremely sexist favouring men) and workplace environment (women are continuously sexually propositioned; pretty overwhelming evidence for that IMO). Making the forma…

It's not actually that bad to proposition to somebody. It's part of human nature. Some people are even flattered by it.

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#364

Post by haberman »

Traster wrote: post #348
haberman wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article said disproportionately more underpayment was to men. Therefore your hypothetical scenario (which posits that the difference was measured in absolute terms) is not what Google found.

It wouldn't be the first time a news article had a poor understanding of statistics. But more importantly, you may find men occupy high salary roles in engineering whilst women work in HR - resulting in the salary changes going disproportionately to men, because a % increase in their salary is far higher than the women on lower salaries.

> But more importantly, you may find men occupy high salary roles in engineering whilst women work in HR - resulting in the salary changes going disproportionately to men, because a % increase in their salary is far higher than the women on lower salaries.

The article says the opposite with regard to where the salary adjustments went:

> One effect of the adjustments was to create a pronounced imbalance in compensation among lower-level software engineers, one of Google’s largest job groups, with a large number of men identified as being underpaid compared with their female peers. To offset that, further adjustments were made. Google said it saw no pattern in the reasons women were receiving more discretionary pay.

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#365

Post by radicalbyte »

avip wrote: post #333
rhegart wrote: post #154

High school, college, any STEM fields are all overwhelmingly biased in terms of favoring women. 57% of college graduates are women. Men are not only getting the short end of the stick but are being told by every voice that they are privileged, it’s their fault, they are bad whereas women have sooooo many extra programs and positive reinforcement to succeed. No one with a straight face can tell me women in entry level…

The funny thing is it's all open. Women-only positions in unis and so. My wife was even invited to a women-only conference! I asked her if she would go to a "white only" or "Christian only" event.

My wife was invited to a women-only wedding.

I wish that all people would be open minded and just treat everyone equally by default no matter what they look like, what genitalia they have or their wealth level.

Save the exclusion for people who show themselves to be *s (i.e. who cause harm to others). So ban smokers / drinkers from your wedding not men.

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#366

Post by ggggtez »

rhegart wrote: post #154

High school, college, any STEM fields are all overwhelmingly biased in terms of favoring women. 57% of college graduates are women. Men are not only getting the short end of the stick but are being told by every voice that they are privileged, it’s their fault, they are bad whereas women have sooooo many extra programs and positive reinforcement to succeed. No one with a straight face can tell me women in entry level…

>any STEM fields are all overwhelmingly biased in terms of favoring women.

This sounds like an uneducated opinion. Sample size of 1: My department had maybe 1 female professor for every 10 male. The student ratio was pretty similar.

In your sample, you asked "your friends", which is a really biased sample. How did you meet them? Did you only meet them because they already had the high paying job? You aren't accounting for variables, and you are ignoring evidence.

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#367

Post by vkou »

roguecoder wrote: post #274
sorum wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 57% of college graduates are women What's the percentage female graduates in STEM fields? The 57% may not be representative for the fields which matter for engineers. Not saying the delta is big, I honestly don't know and am curious.

Between 2004 and 2014 women received 50.4% of undergrad degrees in STEM fields.

STEM includes an awful lot of S, which should not be in the same boat as the T and E parts of that acronym.

Employment prospects for scientists are absolutely dreadful (For someone spending years of training to acquire highly specialized, highly technical, highly difficult skills) compared to those of someone who can hack together a CRUD webapp.

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#368

Post by mindslight »

nitwit005 wrote: post #277
rfinney wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"non major liberal cities" I think the "me too" thing proved the coastal elite were part of the problem.

It'd be perfectly accurate to say that San Francisco has discrimination against homosexuals, but people are still relocating there to avoid the discrimination where they are. Some places are enormously better than other places.

It is perfectly accurate to say that anywhere has discrimination against anybody, because for any moderately sized group there is always going to be someone engaging in a given behavior.

Distributions and nuanced statements are the crux of this entire matter, yet in these discussions they're cast away in favor of simplistic narratives. If you draw the metric this way, "men" are paid more. If you draw the metric that way, "women" are paid more, surprise! This is already headed down the path to madness!

Generalizations using scalar metrics (or even slightly more advanced higher moments) can only inform - they simply cannot form a basis for prescriptive policies to reform! We generally see sexism/racism/xxism as wrong because they ignore individuals in favor of broken-ass group-based narratives. Yet over the past several years this collectivist thinking has re-sprouted in full force, sanctioned as acceptable because it's "helping" - yet it's still fundamentally broken!

Specifically, every company's basic incentive is to cheap out on every single employee as much as possible without having them leave. They are taking advantage of every person's individual reluctance to fully negotiate, essentially arbitraging their human-emotional holdups. Is it terribly surprising that there are going to be wide disparities between what different personalities (regardless of but also including gender) are paid?

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#369

Post by [deleted] »

CydeWeys wrote: post #109
oarabbus_ wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then what is the issue here. I'm hearing "no the issue is that the data was looked at wrong and they really do discriminate against women". Now I'm hearing that "it doesn't matter that there are significant numbers of both underpaid women and underpaid men" from you. I guess it's not very clear to me what you think the issue is here.

Are you confusing me with someone else?

[deleted]

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#370

Post by lazyasciiart »

rafiki6 wrote: post #95
johnny313 wrote: post #36

> Kelly Ellis, a former Google engineer and one of the plaintiffs in the gender-pay suit against the company, said in a legal filing that Google hired her as a Level 3 employee — the category for new software engineers who are recent college graduates — in 2010 despite her having four years of experience. > Within a few weeks of Ms. Ellis being hiring, Google hired a male engineer for her team who had also graduated…

Outside of the obvious reason of needing a job, I can't understand why she didn't immediately begin to interview and look for a job elsewhere. This goes for both men and women. If you are clearly being underpaid for your level of experience and skill, don't stay put.

A few years of google on your resume looks a lot better than a couple of months. And you also have to weigh the likelihood of running into the same problem at other places.
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