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Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

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Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#361

Post by krapp »

sharpneli wrote: post #306
mrkurt wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really a fine line. There are specific, protected people-features you can't use to discriminate. Saying stupid shit isn't one of them. Race is. Those laws don't exist because we don't agree with their reasons. They exist to protect people who have been categorically repressed for hundreds of years.

This brings an interesting workaround to mind. What if they register their ideology as a religion? Iirc it is a protected class in US so they cannot be banned due to it. However people getting banned like this rarely are inventive enough to figure out ways to fight back.

>What if they register their ideology as a religion? Iirc it is a protected class in US so they cannot be banned due to it.

The thing about the law is that it doesn't operate like code. You can't just cast(ideology) and expect it to work within the framework of law, because the law is (luckily) interpreted by people who expect it to be taken advantage of by the unscrupulous.

Otherwise, literally every corporation would already have registered themselves as a religion just to avoid paying taxes.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#362

Post by manfredo »

darawk wrote: post #348
manfredo wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Social media platforms and the internet generally, substantially weaken the power of culture to regulate speech in the way that it used to. I fail to see how this is the case. It does absolutely grant the power to regulate speech. What Social media platforms have changes is that the people who are carrying out the informal regulation of speech have shifted to being a very narrow subset of the population, and one th…

> I fail to see how this is the case. It does absolutely grant the power to regulate speech. I didn't say it prevented speech regulation in general. I said that it attenuated the previous regime of speech regulation. It does so by replacing it with a new one, where speech norms are determined by a tiny group of people in unelected, unreviewable positions at private companies. > The evidence really does indicate that…

Largely because the opposition did exactly that: they started deplatforming and attempting to more coercively prevent right wing views from speaking. Deplatforming grew in popularity around 2013 or 2014. Students at Brown shut down Ray Kelly's speech in 2014 [1]. We did prevent these groups from going out into the sunlight. That gave them the chance to grow in the shadows.

Also, with regards to Trump, I largely see his election as happening despite his association with the alt right rather than because of it. It's a big liability not just for him, but the Republican party. Trump's biggest advantage wasn't anything to do with him, but the fact that Democrats had alienated manyc centrists in the leadup to the election, and fielded a candidate that lacked the enthusiasm to rally their base.

1. this is not to say that Ray Kelly is alt right. The fact that he got shut down despite not being nearly that extreme, though, is still demonstrative of my point.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#363

Post by username90 »

thelasthuman wrote: post #99
fb-denier wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One does not simply use a payment processor directly. Stripe and PayPal both deplatformed within a week the Patreon alternative that the guy went to after being kicked off Patreon (SubscribeStar). Hatreon was also deplatformed by their payment processor, as noted below. In another recent instance, MasterCard demanded that Patreon kick off another person for political reasons [1]. Social network Gab is now accepting U…

What's stopping these people from creating a "MasterRacecard" and fulfilling their payment processing?

The card would need to get deals with banks and dealers, which it wouldn't get. So they would need to create their own banks as well, and then they would need to construct all supporting services for those banks as well...

I think you realize that this isn't doable.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#364

Post by jesssse »

bilbo0s wrote: post #288
cabalamat wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that isn't the line, the line is don't be Sargon of Akkad.

OK with that line too. Guy's a douche.

And tomorrow the line will be don't be Republican.

Republicans were banned IRL from a public parade in Portland, OR.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#365

Post by outoftheabyss »

stevebmark wrote: post #350

I applaud Patreon's principled and value based stance. Hate speech is a difficult thing to address, and building social pressure against it is one of the few valuable tools we have.

Given the context, Patreon were hardly addressing hate speech in any well meaning or virtuous way. Your applause is not for a value based stance but for an ideological one

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#366

Post by wsy »

cabalamat wrote: post #328
bilbo0s wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK with that line too. Guy's a douche.

And what about when the line is you? Will that also be OK? First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out — Because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out — Because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out — Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me — and there was no one left to speak for me. -- Martin Niemoelle…

That citation is about putting people in concentration camps, not about free speech.

It is characteristic of the people now banned by Patreon - and their followers - to stylize themselves as martyrs. However, they are just unwelcome, like someone ranting loudly at a bar. There is nothing going on that threatens anyone's life.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#367

Post by marcosdumay »

aeternus wrote: post #357
zepto wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that they aren’t necessarily highly unpopular. They are just outside of the political norms that happen to be popular within a small class in control of the platforms.

If they aren't highly unpopular then there should be a demand and market for services/platforms that do allow those opinions. Even though not as large, another company/service should be able to fill the void.

What smaller company is out there competing with Cloudflare, or Partenon? There isn't, because there's a minimum size to enter those markets, and not enough scale to sustain niches.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#368

Post by johnny22 »

dkersten wrote: post #308
mrkurt wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really a fine line. There are specific, protected people-features you can't use to discriminate. Saying stupid shit isn't one of them. Race is. Those laws don't exist because we don't agree with their reasons. They exist to protect people who have been categorically repressed for hundreds of years.

What about refusing someone because they voted for the other guy in the last election?

"Right to refuse service to anyone" is a sign that was common once.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#369

Post by derp_dee_derp »

smrtinsert wrote: post #358
coffeemug wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Freedom of Speech is not the right to be heard. People keep saying this and repeating it, but as far as I can tell this meme is destructive and wrong. Freedom of speech isn't just a legal assurance that congress shall make no law abridging it. It is also a set of cultural norms rooted deeply in a long lineage of hard won ideas. It is Evelyn Hall's principle "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the de…

This is total crap. That norm was long abandoned. Absolutely no one on the right defends freed of speech as a cultural norm. The modern right uses "freedom of speech" as a proxy to discriminate/marginalize and spread hate speech. Edit:Boohoo, I offended the snowflakes.

The fact that you believe what you wrote makes it painfully obvious you've never actually listened to any of what the "modern right" is saying and have no idea what message they are spreading, hate speech or not.

Perhaps you should look at your own faults before condemning others. Your misguided hard line belief makes you similar to the Puritans of old trying to suppress anti Christian heresy.

It's kind of ironic, actually.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#370

Post by raiflip »

madeofmeat wrote: post #213
orthecreedence wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're right, many things tend toward centralization, large networks and infrastructure (and sometimes difficult-to-solve problems) being among them. I personally "feel" (because I can't really form a hardened ideology around it) that the closer things get to infrastructure, the more neutral they should be. In other words, the more difficult it is to spin up a competitor to Company A, the more Company A shoul…

> we cannot enforce decentralization Sure we can, it's called antitrust law.

To an extent, yes. That can prevent monopolies, but it does not prevent oligopolies, and in this case those are just as dangerous. If you want to protect free speech, you need not just one or two, but probably hundreds of viable platforms. It's not obvious this is something the legal system can properly enforce.
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