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Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

euractiv.com

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Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#361

Post by davidgould »

olivermarks wrote: post #82
rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's more widely distributed than electricity?

Delivering high voltage to recharge the amperage these batteries need is a whole different grid in remote areas to delivering 240v for light bulbs and fridges. Separately Norway is one of the richest countries on the planet thanks to its offshore oil. Their sovereign fund dwarfs Saudi Arabia in comparison so maybe they currently can cannibalize that revenue to build a supergrid. China is building an ultra high voltag…

No need for a separate grid to deliver high voltage even in rural areas, the overhead or underground wires are between 4KV to 30KV anyway. There is a transformer to step it down to the end use voltage, whatever that is, eg 240 or 400.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#362

Post by davidgould »

olivermarks wrote: post #193
bluGill wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what the situation is in Europe, but in the US farmers use a lot of power. They have welders and other such tools that can draw 50 amps or more. The motors for their drying fans are drawing 20 amps each (and several of them can run at once). Note that the above amp figures are at 240 volts just like power in Europe, not the lower 120 we use for lights and fridges.

continuous draw for hundreds of thousands of batteries is vastly more than this example

What is the application for hundreds of thousands of batteries on a farm?

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#363

Post by qkls »

reaperducer wrote: post #336
hydrox24 wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the United States, it was somewhat more complex than that. The highway network was and is primarily part of the nation's military defense infrastructure You are right. I am not contesting the Highway system, which actually still seems to be a good case for Federal public spending, both because it benefits the military and because it is inter-state. My point is entirely regarding the roads that were built out fro…

If these were paid for by those who used them Well, they are. That's the 9/10th of a cent that drivers pay on each gallon of gas they purchase. IMO, it should be closer to an even five cents, with half of it going to mass transit. But then I also drank milk and Pepsi mixed together when I was a kid, so I'm not exactly reliable.

Does that cover the cost of the roads? Finnish fuel tax is 68 euro cents per litre (2,57€/2,95$ per gallon) and 2/3 of that covers the road maintenance. That is 328 times the amount of your fuel tax.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#364

Post by KozmoNau7 »

merb wrote: post #302
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's kind of a bad comparison because the Ford F-Series (or any other pickup platform) is many different vehicles under one name.

basically in europe there are not a lot of pickups to none out there. in europe there is a trend for SUVs at the moment, but besides that we mostly buy limousines.

There are plenty of pickups in Europe. It's just that they're based on vans, with a tray on the back instead of a box. And very few people are silly enough to buy one as their personal vehicle.

If we need to move mulch or the like, we rent/buy trailers.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#365

Post by robben1234 »

netcan wrote: post #65

At the start, I thought these announcements and laws (eg Scotland) to ban ICE vehicles by 20XX were cheap politics. A promise Someone Else will deliver later, with credit due to you now. I've come around though. I think all the bastardized carbon accounting, market based solutions are on average quite bad. The idea of a neutral, "market decides" policy is a myth. These things are complex, and that compmexity is an op…

>Vehicles hit junkyards faster

not really. They just migrate faster to Ukraine, Belarus and Russia.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#366

Post by KozmoNau7 »

FullyFunctional wrote: post #114
eanzenberg wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, production of cars (and consumerism in general) is extremely bad for carbon emissions and for the environment. Carbon emissions from the production of 1 car generally rival the lifetime emissions from the tailpipe [1]. If you have no choice but to replace an old car for new then sure, get a more efficient one. If you're replacing cars every 3 years like an average westerner, given the age of cars I see…

Consumerism is bad for the planet, 100% true. However the "every 3 years like an average westerner" remark needs citation. In the context of the article (Denmark) it is certainly not true. Cars are so expensive (the 180% tax is absolutely real - I've paid it) that people hold on to cars longer and buy used more. In fact, the number of people with zero cars would be hard to believe if you come from California. Alas, t…

>"(the 180% tax is absolutely real - I've paid it)"

This statement requires a bit more detail. It wasn't a flat tax rate, it was graduated, so below a certain price, there was a lower rate (105% IIRC), to incentivize smaller cheaper cars, and as a luxury tax on expensive vehicles.

As it is now, the rate is 85% below ~190K DKK and 150% of the value above that. The cutover has been steadily going up over a couple of years now.

So no, it has not ever been a flat 180%, as some people like to claim. It's still high, but there are tons of cars out there that don't hit the tax cutover point, even family cars.

Edit: And the rates are lower for motorcycles, hybrid cars and such.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#367

Post by KozmoNau7 »

jopsen wrote: post #203
ptaipale wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The two sources is different, so it might be good to be wary about comparing them. Could be right though. But anyway, these average ages may be due to little used old cars being taken out of registry, to avoid annual fixed taxes? This has not much impact on the average age of cars used in daily traffic. FWIW, I'm from Finland, also with a history of high car purchase taxes, and the average in above data is almost 12…

No, I think they did lower it to 180% last year..

85% below and 150% above the cutover, since ~2015 I believe.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#368

Post by dagw »

wongarsu wrote: post #259
tom_ wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure? There are cars that are that efficient, but as an average ? In real life?

The average European car is very different from the average US car. The most sold cars in the US are the Ford F series, in the EU it's the VW Golf and similar hatchbacks. There are a lot of forces at play here, among others tax rates (which cause the F150 to get bigger and European cars to get lighter), fuel prices, culture (in Europe a big truck won't impress anyone, you get other types of cars for that), average an…

Europe nobody fantasizes about roadtrips

So how do you explain the countless German and Dutch cars driving around forests of Norway and Sweden every summer?

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#369

Post by Tepix »

yholio wrote: post #300
newnewpdro wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comparison in the graph you linked isn't particularly useful. The US, having cheap gasoline, uses gasoline vehicles in far more roles than say, the EU does, where diesel is far more common. "Light commercial" might as well read "should have been diesel" from an MPG standpoint.

That's the point of carbon taxes, isn't it? It's irrelevant what and how people drive, and they certainly don't give a buck about carbon emissions, yet they unwittingly alter their behavior with the effect of reducing the taxed behavior. By the way, diesel is now typically more expensive than gasoline in Europe too, and the tax embodied in the price is roughly proportional to the carbon content of both. In the past t…

> By the way, diesel is now typically more expensive than gasoline in Europe too

Really? Which countries? Not in the european countries I'm familiar with.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#370

Post by KozmoNau7 »

Annatar wrote: post #357
mattlondon wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you'll need just need to get the bus when you cant get a fossil fuel vehicle any more. Good luck. P.S. 350kw fast chargers are typically being advertised as zero to 80% charge in 15 minutes - cars that can accept these chargers are due in the next couple of years from Audi, Ford, BMW et al so mainstream "ordinary" cars as well as exotica like Porsche. I cant find any stats online, but I have read that the ave…

"I guess you'll need just need to get the bus when you cant get a fossil fuel vehicle any more. Good luck." A bus also needs diesel (:-D) My car is old enough that I could make my own biodiesel with the electricity from solar panels and run on it, so when the rest are stuck, I'll always have fuel. Even if nuclear war hits.

There are electric buses running as test vehicles on major bus routes in Copenhagen, and the 5C bus line runs CNG buses exclusively.

Diesel buses are still the majority, but they are slowly being phased out.

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