Live data from Hacker News

I don't trust Signal

drewdevault.com

361–370 of 473 posts

Re: I don't trust Signal

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could, but I'm probably ill informed. I want to hear your specific rebuttal to this: >Even in the idealized case, you can sniff traffic on the router to find out which user IPs are talking to each other and when.

That's a string that appears nowhere in Yogesh's research. Are you at this point conceding that the link you cited has nothing to do with this thread?

I concede that this:

>I did: I was on the review board that made the decision to accept it for Black Hat.

Probably makes you more qualified to talk about SGX than me, so yes, I concede that the paper may not be relevant because your understanding of it is probably better than mine.

With that, I asked you a more fundamental question, given that you are knowledgeable about this and may be able to provide an answer.

Re: I don't trust Signal

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a string that appears nowhere in Yogesh's research. Are you at this point conceding that the link you cited has nothing to do with this thread?

I concede that this: >I did: I was on the review board that made the decision to accept it for Black Hat. Probably makes you more qualified to talk about SGX than me, so yes, I concede that the paper may not be relevant because your understanding of it is probably better than mine. With that, I asked you a more fundamental question, given that you are knowledgeable about this and may be able to provide an answer.

What I'm asking is whether you had a coherent argument about weaknesses in SGX based on Yogesh's research that would keep it from functioning in Signal's contact discovery scheme, or whether you saw the letters "SGX" in a thread and posted the first link you could find about issues with SGX. Maybe you should find a better link? They're out there.

Re: I don't trust Signal

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like you didn't actually read the article or my comments in this thread. >Drew DeVault doesn't trust Signal because its Android incarnation uses the Google Play Store --- the app market virtually all of its real users use --- and not F-Droid It should use both. >the point of end-to-end encryption is that you don't have to trust Signal's server. All it does is arrange for the delivery of messages, which are sec…

I read your article, carefully, twice, once this morning (I briefly tweeted about it but didn't feel like I could do it justice and deleted the tweet) and again before writing this. I've read all of your comments in this thread to date and, as you can see, replied to some of them. I feel like I have fairly summarized your arguments. "It should use both", you say. Signal disagrees. That makes Signal evil, according to…

I read your comments, twice. Once now and once 5 minutes ago. You are hyperbolic, dishonest and clearly angry. Some clear examples, and I will do this with quotes:

What you said was "Drew DeVault doesn't trust Signal because its Android incarnation uses the Google Play Store --- the app market virtually all of its real users use --- and not F-Droid"

Clearly that's not what the author said. You representing him as saying that IS A LIE. You saying that you did not say that IS A LIE.

Other lies and fallacies from you include:

- You claim he claims that "signal is evil". This is a lie - This argument is clownish and we should be embarrassed it's on the front page. This is a fallacy - he's constructed an entire psychoanalysis of Moxie Marlinspike. This is a hyperbolic untruth.

Please sir, I appreciate the fact that you are digging. That's good! We should focus on the details, because in security and security theatre the details are all that matters. Clearly the author has pointed out details where the security or security theatre is weak.

Re: I don't trust Signal

#364
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's easier for Google to manipulate a package on Google Play than on F-Droid. That's not how Android app signing works. It's a "trust on first use" model, so once you install an app, any update must be signed by the same key or the system will refuse to install it. That key is held by Signal, not Google, so Google cannot sign updates to apps. > WhatsApp has done that to even more people, so what's the point of Sig…

> That's not how Android app signing works. Google has root, so it can change how app signing works at any time. > Both have their pros and cons, and both have legitimate reasons to exist. I just looks to me like whenever someone mentions a pro point of Signal, it's something where WhatsApp shines even more (e.g. "brings end-to-end encryption to the masses", "it's available on the App stores", "better iOS support tha…

Also, the whole “play services are running as root” thing, while repeated often, appears to be just not true: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17727705

Re: I don't trust Signal

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not interested. I'm not litigating F-Droid and don't need to. F-Droid advocates, and some F-Droid critics, disagree: if F-Droid is implicated in an argument, we must fully adjudicate all its pro's and con's. No, that's not how the world works. I'm sufficiently well informed about F-Droid to know --- and I mean this in a benign sense, the same way I feel about OCaml or slab allocator design --- that I don't care.

What kind of monster doesn't care about slab allocator design?

That one, presumably.

Re: I don't trust Signal

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't actually endorse any of the alternatives, just listing them. I haven't had time to research them in depth. I have worked with Tox before and I know some of the guys behind it, though, but I think it's dead in the water.

Oh, so you are just a retard who doesn't understand anything?

We've banned this account.

Re: I don't trust Signal

#367
To be completely honest, Android should be considered as "insecure" for the same reasons. It's binary blobs that are hacked around by distributors with limited support after a year or so (when phones stop being manufactured and widely sold).

Can we just get a proper Linux OS running on mobile devices already that's properly open source and easily re-flash-able? It's clear that ARM is here to stay and if Linux is to stay relevant, it needs to move towards support for one of the most popular computing devices on the planet. Desktops made their way into each home and mobile have made their may into each pocket.

That way, running something like Signal would be more trust-able coming from a package manager, especially with something like Debian's reproducible builds.

Re: I don't trust Signal

#368
post #324
post #40

> P.S. If you’re looking for good alternatives to Signal, I can recommend Matrix. Yes, if you're looking for alternatives to Signal, you should totally use a solution that hasn't rolled out end-to-end encryption by default[0]. /s ...and that only two clients have implemented so far, out of 50ish that they list on their website. [0] https://matrix.org/docs/guides/faq.html#what-is-the-status-o...

Or conversations.im? Matrix + riot leaves a heap of meta data about you on the federated server. If that server is compromised, so are you.

Surely Matrix doesn't leave any more metadata than XMPP with MAM enabled (which presumably most XMPPers use these days)?

Re: I don't trust Signal

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read your article, carefully, twice, once this morning (I briefly tweeted about it but didn't feel like I could do it justice and deleted the tweet) and again before writing this. I've read all of your comments in this thread to date and, as you can see, replied to some of them. I feel like I have fairly summarized your arguments. "It should use both", you say. Signal disagrees. That makes Signal evil, according to…

I read your comments, twice. Once now and once 5 minutes ago. You are hyperbolic, dishonest and clearly angry. Some clear examples, and I will do this with quotes: What you said was "Drew DeVault doesn't trust Signal because its Android incarnation uses the Google Play Store --- the app market virtually all of its real users use --- and not F-Droid" Clearly that's not what the author said. You representing him as say…

We need you to present your own arguments civilly and substantively, according to the guidelines. Perhaps we could also please request “calmly”.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: I don't trust Signal

#370
"Google Play Services lets Google do silent background updates on apps on your phone and give them any permission they want. Having Google Play Services on your phone means your phone is not secure."

Yes, Google can install a backdoored version of Signal. This is bad. But if you can't take that risk, you can install e.g. LineageOS without Google Apps, download the source code, reproducibly compile the apk, and install it on your android. If you have a better idea, maybe it can be implemented.

"A checksum isn’t a signature, by the way - if your government- or workplace- or abusive-spouse-installed certificate authority gets in the way they can replace the APK and its checksum with whatever they want."

If they can add a certificate on your smartphone/PC, why can't they replace Signal with malicious one? Why can't they replace F-Droid? There is no 100% method to solve this issue, unless perhaps if you can meet with F-Droid developers, obtain the authentic public key from them to verify the F-Droid client's signature. Calling SHA256 cryptographic hash a checksum shows slight dishonesty on your side. The differences in connotations between the words are significant.

F-Droid doesn't magically solve this problem. The root of trust comes from another SHA256 hash -- 61:DB:51:32:39:47:61:C4:D4:3F:8A:9B:AE:72:B0:2E:B0:8D:F3:B5:ED:F2:92:1C:7B:14:7E:2F:29:30:83:03 -- that authenticates the certificate of f-droid.org.

Or it comes from the hash F3:33:D2:E7:FA:A3:68:7F:B2:99:3E:6D:F6:9D:EE:1D:DA:77:36:11:DD:CA:B3:3A:B6:79:87:AA:40:56:94:22 that authenticates the MIT's PGP key server that has the signature verification key for F-droid clients: https://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?search=f-droid&op=index All your suggestion does is, it adds a layer or two where we hope the NSA doesn't compromise them in case you'd want to use that chain to install and validate Signal. And even if you personally verify the authenticity of public key, you haven't solved the issue of private key exfiltration via hacking. You need expensive HW like HSMs to even start combatting exfiltration. And Google can afford those.

"...centralized servers and trademarks."

Of course you can't call a fork with the same or similar name as the original. You don't want malicious entities to create projects with names like "Signal Official Client" etc. Having distinct name helps both the fork and the original one.

Centralized servers fix a crucial issue, shitty designs that linger forever. It also fixes the issue of having to deal with backwards compatibility indefinitely. Moxie can actually see what versions are still deployed, and push updates to most users. The idea here being, you don't have to support older protocols (e.g. the group chat had a big issue that was or is currently being worked on), implement backwards compatilibity that risks downgrade attacks etc.

Let me give you an example. Riot decided to go with stupid, stupid base64 public key fingerprints. What happens here the only way to jump to smart choice of base10, is if all clients switch at the same time. If one client shows fingerprint in different base, it's not compatible. Sure, you can add a feature that lets the clients negotiate which fingerprint to use but then you need to get that deployed to every client. This happens really slowly, and it must usually follow the waterfall model with first deciding about these things on future revisions of Matrix protocol. And if you want to know how that will turn out, take a good look at OpenPGP research group: since SHAppening, they haven't even been able to agree on a new hash function for fingerprints. And once decided, that hash function will wait for years before the next revision of protocol is ready. Then you wait for it to be implemented in upcoming reference libraries and forks of those. And then you wait for them to be deployed in clients. Moxie changed all users' fingerprints from Base16 to Base10 -- my guess -- within a week by pushing the update. The advantage of agility is obvious.

"But we have to trust that Moxie is running the server software he says he is."

For content encryption, we absolutely don't have to trust him. For metadata, yes, we must trust the server runs the version that only collects registration date and some other minor detail, I forget. If you want to remove metadata, use Ricochet or Briar. Because Signal isn't lying about being anonymous by design, the only thing I think we can agree is, it should be stated in clear on their front page: "End-to-end encrypted, but not anonymous, we know your phone number and IP-address, and can see who you talk to, when and how much".

"We can stop Signal from knowing when we’re talking to each other by using peer-to-peer chats."

Yes, but that doesn't prevent global passive adversaries from seeing who we connect to directly. In some authoritarian country, the government could see Alice and Bob talk to each other. With centralized design, they only see connection to service providing domain fronting, or connection to Signal server at most. If you really wanted to solve this, you would run Ricochet or Briar.

Federation is a horrible idea. I trust they are not interested in my metadata personally. I won't trust metadata of all my chats to a friend of mine who runs personal instance of Signal Server. He watches porn on that same computer. He downloads Russian game cracks to that computer. He has friends who are my enemies and vice versa. He has repressed personal grudges, reasons to fuck me over, or he doesn't have 50M in foundation money (and he'd prefer $5k over our weekend hang-outs that admittedly are getting boring) or strong cypherpunk ideology to prevent corruption. He's a chinese refugee who has relatives he loves in political prisons, waiting to hand out their organs to rich members of the political party, and he's being extorted for my metadata on his computer. His computer isn't patching itself automatically so there as RCE vulnerability that got him compromised by our common adversary. He clicked on wrong link, once. The number of threats is endless.

Federated system doesn't distribute risks across hundreds of operators, it increases the attack surface tremendously, while dropping the number of targets the metadata of which is compromised at the moment. But I don't care about others, I care about the fact my friend doesn't have as good security as Google and Signal devs. Government agencies are really, really, really, really good at hacking and the trend is towards mass hacking. Having shitty servers makes that free because you can use exploits that should already be useless due to system updates.

"Federation would also open the possibility for bridging the gap with several other open source secure chat platforms to all talk on the same federated network -"

Yeah let's talk about that. Currently many Matrix channels lack end-to-end encryption because there is a backdoor: an IRC-bridge bot that leaks all conversations to non-end-to-end encrypted environment. Like you said: "Tradeoffs are necessary - but self-serving tradeoffs are not.", the possibility of having bots is extremely dangerous. The fact Matrix isn't end-to-end encrypted by default is horrible. The E2EE is in beta, and the fingerprint verification in clients suck. For the past three years I've been complaining about this, every time there is a developer assuring this will be fixed. This bug should never have existed in the first place. Now the users have come to accustomed to having the possiblity for briges to insecure systems.

"but those are all really convenient excuses for an argument which allows him to design systems which serve his own interests."

You should not make such generalized defamatory claims if you want to be taken seriously. I took this seriously at start but your arguments really lost their traction. It was another badly thought post that didn't show understanding of design choices and that hurt more than in helped: People might now switch to less secure Matrix protocol. Or they might even go with unaudited Tox, designed by non-experts.

Post reply on HN