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Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over censorship circumvention

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Re: Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over censorship circumvention

#361
Haven't these guys solved this problem: https://zencash.com/

They're paying over 12,000 people in zencash, to host 'securenodes' with domain names and ssl certificates for domain fronting, rather than using domain names without permission.

https://securenodes.na.zensystem.io/nodes/all

Re: Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over censorship circumvention

#362
Couldn't Signal use popular domains to host IP addresses as a rudimentary DNS server of sorts? For example, host a text file containing Signal server IPs on Google App engine (using the app.google.com address), Azure Blob Storage (using blob.azure.com endpoint), GitHub (raw.githubusercontent.com), S3 (s3.amazonaws.com), etc. There are hundreds of possibilities on some really popular hosting services. Then, when the app starts, it queries in them in series, gets a list of IPs used by Signal, and tries them directly. Signal can then push new IPs (preferably ones in the AWS address space) to the list as often as needed to avoid blocking. Need a new IP? Just grab another from AWS elastic IP service, update the text file, etc.

Re: Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over censorship circumvention

#363

Couldn't Signal use popular domains to host IP addresses as a rudimentary DNS server of sorts? For example, host a text file containing Signal server IPs on Google App engine (using the app.google.com address), Azure Blob Storage (using blob.azure.com endpoint), GitHub (raw.githubusercontent.com), S3 (s3.amazonaws.com), etc. There are hundreds of possibilities on some really popular hosting services. Then, when the a…

And then the censors can very conveniently block all those IPs too, can't they?

Re: Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over censorship circumvention

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> FANG Stands for Facebook, Amazon, Netflix, Google, apparently.

Three companies I don't use, and one that has lost nearly all of my search traffic due to terrible results for really simple queries. It will be interesting to see in what form they persist over the next few decades!

> don't use

> nearly

So you do use it for search.

And two of these companies are probably hosting some of the websites you visit.

Re: Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over censorship circumvention

#365

Haven't these guys solved this problem: https://zencash.com/ They're paying over 12,000 people in zencash, to host 'securenodes' with domain names and ssl certificates for domain fronting, rather than using domain names without permission. https://securenodes.na.zensystem.io/nodes/all

The point of domain fronting is to use a domain that is a key internet service, so that blocking it would cause significant collateral damage. If a domain was created specifically for domain fronting it is useless. Egypt could simply block every domain in that list and setup a cron job to automatically block new ones as they are added.

Re: Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over censorship circumvention

#366

"Unfortunately, a TLS handshake fully exposes the target hostname in plaintext, since the hostname is included in the SNI header in the clear. This remains the case even in TLS 1.3, and it gives a censor all they need." Does this mean that endpoints that require SNI are potentially contributing to censorship? Facts: SNI is optional. Not all websites require it. For example, https://signal.org does not require SNI; cl…

The process listening to IPs that resolve as signal.org must not have alternative hosts on it, since the web server can’t choose a certificate based on anything but IP. Now the censor can just block your IP.

[deleted]

Re: Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over censorship circumvention

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a difference when people have never had access to things and when you take away access. A difference would be like America and North Korea and taking away the internet. The vast majority of Americans use the internet and it is an integral part to their lives. You take it away and they would riot in a heartbeat. On the other hand if you have a regime where the majority of people never had access to the intern…

> You take it away and they would riot in a heartbeat. I'm not certain that this is true. No American Dictator would just outright ban the internet, no they'd say they were protecting children and blocking terrorists, and require internet providers to block that content. Anyone arguing that this is censorship would be branded as a supporter of child pornography and terrorists. A few more steps along that line and wha…

You're right in that it can be done through a long process. But as freedomben notes (in response to my reply), Egypt is an example of what I'm talking about.

Re: Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over censorship circumvention

#368

Haven't these guys solved this problem: https://zencash.com/ They're paying over 12,000 people in zencash, to host 'securenodes' with domain names and ssl certificates for domain fronting, rather than using domain names without permission. https://securenodes.na.zensystem.io/nodes/all

That second link you provided lists every single one of the IP addresses and hostnames associated with the service.

It would be trivial for censors to just block every single one of them.

Re: Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over censorship circumvention

#369

Haven't these guys solved this problem: https://zencash.com/ They're paying over 12,000 people in zencash, to host 'securenodes' with domain names and ssl certificates for domain fronting, rather than using domain names without permission. https://securenodes.na.zensystem.io/nodes/all

That second link you provided lists every single one of the IP addresses and hostnames associated with the service. It would be trivial for censors to just block every single one of them.

Good point, in it's current form it's a little weak. I'm hoping they get rid of that list eventually.

Re: Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over censorship circumvention

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, free countries (or those who consider themselves as such) should make it fully illegal for private companies to aid in any kind of censorship in behalf of oppressive countries. But what we see in reality is the opposite, all companies trying to make it as cheap and as simple as possible to censor anything every government dislikes; meaning the liberal fantasy of allowing every private company to do as it ple…

As you note, private companies are typically free to do as they please in free countries...that's kinda the point. You have no right to use AWS, so this is not censorship in the legal sense. And free governments also tend to have strong laws respecting the sovereignty of other nations, whether or not their laws are similar. Your frustration is noble, but it's also internally inconsistent.

Private companies are not entirely free to do as they please in free countries. There's always some degree of non-free-ness. It's not at all unreasonable, and it would be at all surprising, to find free states forbidding cooperation with non-free states' oppression. Indeed, it happens all the time in some way or another.
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