James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google • Hacker News Board

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#361

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:40 PM UTC

mydpy wrote: post #137

Legal question: Most employment agreements require employees sign an arbitration clause. Even though these have mixed enforceability, they are very intimidating (which I believe is their intended purpose). If you had a high-profile case like this, are you choosing to defy the arbitration agreement? Anyone ever gone through this and willing to share the process?

California has a very high minimum standard for am arbitration agreement to validly cover fair employment claims, including the employer covering all arbitration costs (irrespective of outcome), where they would not have to cover all court costs unless they lost and the employee was awarded costs. Armendariz v. Foundation Health, 99 Cal.Rptr.2d 745 (2000) [0]

I wouldn't be surprised if an employer chose to leave claims to which those rules apply out of the coverage of any arbitration agreement; leaving the employee on the hook for court costs is probably a better discouragement to claims, especially meritless ones, than arbitration is.

[0] https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=160495945137091...

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#362

Post by dang » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:40 PM UTC

thenayr wrote: post #280

microcolonel wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're joking, right? No, I'm dead serious, the alt right is not literally reptilians, they hold the vast majority of common moral opinions. The body of things that you and they could agree on is enormous, you can't dismiss somebody simply because the alt-right doesn't disagree with them. > These guys elected the sexual-assaulter-in-chief. So did I, and millions of others. The alt-right is a supreme minority in the…

I don't give a shit what you believe if your entire platform is built upon "White people are discriminated against and jews are bad". EDIT - Ah, Trump supporter, that explains it.

Would you please stop posting flamebait to Hacker News, regardless of how right you are? This thread is awful already, but you've managed to make it significantly worse.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#363

Post by Crespyl » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:41 PM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #300

Pyxl101 wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The differences between men and women are a legitimate topic of scientific inquiry, and therefore discussion. It should certainly be reasonable to explore whether differences in traits leads to differences in preferences or interests such as occupation.

Of course it's an important and legitimate topic of discussion. Just don't discuss it at work. It's called professionalism.

> don't discuss it at work

Even after attending a work event on that very topic, which specifically asked for feedback and further discussion?

Or should discussion be restricted to only one viewpoint?

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#364

Post by ihsw2 » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:42 PM UTC

oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #312

ihsw2 wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies can simply have a straight-edged policy of no politics -- from religion to economics, it's all off-topic and out-of-bounds.

If you ran a traditional company, and were interviewing a candidate who wanted to bring about the destruction of capitalism, would you hire them if there were equally-good alternatives?

If they lacked the emotional regulation to restrain themselves then that would be a red flag that disqualifies them.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#365

Post by dopamean » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:42 PM UTC

ddlsmurf wrote: post #224

dopamean wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was really what did it for me. I read the document and I'll be honest, I didn't really hear the dog whistles and I didn't get particularly worked up about it. I thought it kinda read like pseudo-science and that was about it. But then the dude appeared on Mike Cernovich's show and was all over r/the_donald and I was like, "oh this is who this guy is." I hate to judge someone by the company they keep but this guy…

So guilty by association ? That's healthy... What's truly sad about this is that he is the first I've heard of to propose actually fair measures we could take to promote gender diversity in IT, such as using more socially involved methods such as pair programming. Instead we get positive discrimination. This depiction by tech crunch is an insult to reporting, if you read/listen to the primary source, there is no hate…

It's not just "association" as you put it. r/the_donald was singing is his praises. They're a pretty toxic bunch and I've found that I have very little in common with many of them (mostly because I find their views to be ). So when they're the only people I see coming to someone's defense I assume that person said or did something pretty bad.

Mike Cernovich is the same way. He's looking to push a narrative to further his own agenda. An agenda and narrative I find gross and offensive. So he thinks Damore fits into that narrative. That is a not so subtle hint to me that Damore is saying something gross and offensive.

It's not the best way of judging things for sure but I don't think it served me poorly here.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#366

Post by xeeeeeeeeeeenu » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:42 PM UTC

geofft wrote: post #262

xeeeeeeeeeeenu wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Isn't that what he's been doing through his twitter account where he muses whether people join the KKK because they have cool titles? That was just a joke, stop pretending he is a neo-nazi.

I'm very tired of this "joking" thing. Neo-Nazis (and historical Nazis before them) use jokes to cover their actual, earnest beliefs, and then go "it's just a joke bro" to shield themselves from criticism from those who disagree while gaining earnest support from those who agree. From the Daily Stormer style guide: "The unindoctrinated should not be able to tell if we are joking or not. There should also be a conscio…

> I'm very tired of this "joking" thing. Neo-Nazis (and historical Nazis before them) use jokes to cover their actual, earnest beliefs, and then go "it's just a joke bro" to shield themselves from criticism from those who disagree while gaining earnest support from those who agree. From the Daily Stormer style guide:

So basically your whole argument is that no one is allowed to joke because that's what nazis are doing?

Let me quote his whole tweet:

>The KKK is horrible and I don't support them in any way, but can we admit that their internal title names are cool, e.g. "Grand Wizard"?

There are no shades of gray. This joke isn't even remotely offensive. The only reason why anyone could think otherwise is their prejudice against Damore.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#367

Post by rainbowmverse » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:43 PM UTC

propman wrote: post #346

perseusprime11 wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never knew joe organ was right wing. I've been listening to his podcasts which seem pretty good.

He's not "right wing". Hating SJWs and the extreme left isn't right wing. People are complicated and labeling someone as right wing to invalidate someone's every position is as bad as what the right does to the left. He is if anything fairly moderate with a slight libertarian streak, especially when it comes to drugs. I don't agree with lots of his positions and he's definitely not some really smart guru, but I like…

Those activities may not make someone right wing, but they're at risk of slamming into the right half of the bulkhead if there's turbulence. When things get heated, it makes them hard to tell apart from people who are awful and also use that kind of rhetoric.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#368

Post by bmelton » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:43 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #359

dotnetisnotdead wrote: post #296

Honestly, this whole thing is just ugly. I read what he wrote. It was (mostly) ugly but contained a lot of truth. Before you downvote/call me a Nazi, I'm a mixed race woman in tech. I definitely see people hired just because of their minority status. I also see people hired who are minorities but also great at their job. It's not a binary pattern. But those who are hired just because they are a POC or female, yet are…

> Almost all of the women from my social circle are smart, pragmatic, driven and successful yet have zero interest in a technical career. They excel in their given industries but ours they want no part of. I don't believe intelligence is more prevalent in either gender, but I do believe there are some traits that shape who we are. That's most definitely a cultural thing, and I believe its what diversity programs try…

If the points are fungible (and they absolutely are) then what is the difference between giving extra points to and giving fewer points to . How are they not functionally identical?

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#369

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:43 PM UTC

viridian wrote: post #170

thenayr wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, you know, he could realize what a monumental fuck up he made and try and make a difference for the better. The dude literally let himself be paraded around by the alt-right and neo-nazi groups as a hero. -----------EDIT below--------------- Zero sympathy for this dirtbag. He's un-hireable because he deserves to be. Future advice for Damore wannabees When alt-right Twitter agrees with your world-views, you're doin…

I largely agreed with the memo. I have coworkers and friends who fell on either side of the camp, but more in the agree camp than disagree. Should we just purge half the developers in Columbus for Silicon Valley wrongthink? edit: looks like thenayr updated his post a couple of times since my reply. When written only the first two lines were present.

[deleted]

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#370

Post by zpallin » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:44 PM UTC

oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #210

Whatever you think of the memo, you have to be a little concerned about the precedent this would set if companies were not allowed to discriminate based on 'political' views. Should I be forced to hire a neo-nazi or a terrorist sympathiser so long as they're up to the job?

And this is the crux of the problem with his lawsuit. Political views are not a suspect class in US law afaik.

What Damore may be trying to do is establish a legal understanding that the political discrimination (which definitely happened) was connected to racial discrimination (which would need to be proven in court). If Damore can do that successfully, he should be able to win the lawsuit.

But I don't think it's possible. At least it shouldn't be possible. Like you suggested, companies must be able to discriminate against political behavior at work that is disruptive.

Damore's memo was released in an unruly manner that disrupted Google's bottom line. It also brought down company morale, alienated fellow coworkers, and caused undue internal strife. His resulting unwillingness to help contain the drama demonstrated his lack of allegiance to the company's interest. Behavior like this cannot be protected from termination.