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China's Central Bank Bans ICOs

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Re: China's Central Bank Bans ICOs

#361
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same way they stop you from falsifying your taxes records now. Is this a trick question?

No it's not a trick question. Tax fraud investigation relies on bank cooperation. Bitcoin doesn't cooperate with anybody. They can make toothless voluntary requests though. More likely society evolves in the face of bitcoin to integrate or at least mitigate it rather than fight it, just like music delivery is chiefly now by streaming subscription services rather than album sales.

Bitcoin doesn't cooperate with anybody.

Go try and turn your Bitcoin into cash and then tell me how true this statement is.

Re: China's Central Bank Bans ICOs

#362
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It ultimately comes down to what flavour of politics you subscribe to. The key question is whether you think that the public should be protected against the abuses of the free market, or if the free market should be a complete free-for-all. For example, Dodd-Frank solved a concrete problem, and there have been countless studies that show it it responsible for stabilizing the US economy. But ultimately, wanting to die…

Those "studies" are self serving. That is the political propaganda keeping you feeling safe in having your rights violated. This isn't a question of flavor of politics- but fundamental rights. Do you have freedom of association or not? Secondly, you think its "fairly clear to [you]" that these ICOs are scams. I am sure some are, but I know for a fact that many are not. I am quite capable of telling the difference (as…

Where do your "fundamental rights" come from? Brought down on stone tablets? I mean, I like individual freedoms as much as the next person, but you can't just slap "fundamental" in front of something and then declare the debate over. The other side can just reply that societies have a fundamental right to protect themselves from societal harms at the expense of individuals.

People disagree about what rights people have and what rights governments have. Simply prefixing the word rights with a phrase like "innate," "fundamental," or "inalienable" to make it seem beyond debate is just sophistry.

Re: China's Central Bank Bans ICOs

#363

Why don't rich people need protection? Here's the answer: this is their protection. It reduces their competition. Seriously, these securities rules keep people like me from investing in AirBnB and Uber (two that I caught very early and wanted into)... but we can all go to Vegas and lose $100k in a single weekend. But putting $10k into Uber's seed round is somehow a crime I need to be protected from? Truth of the matt…

In addition to that book you mentioned, check out “Scandal of Money” by George Gilder (quick read) covering the concept of these sort of regulations as well as the nature of sound money vs extreme “financialism” that has replaced it over the last few decades in developed economies... along with increased regulation essentially separating main street from Wall Street / Silicon Valley.

He describes how a return to sound money through Bitcoin and perhaps a new gold standard, as well as reducing these sorts of regulations you describe would enable a renewed prosperity of the middle class.. for a whole host of reasons worth reading in the book.

Re: China's Central Bank Bans ICOs

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recommend that you realise your arguments for a totally free market are exactly as useful as the arguments for a state controlled economy. It doesn't work because people will always screw each other over. This is the reason communism is not viable, and it is the reason libertarianism is not viable either. I hope you realise that todays "strict" food safety laws were born out of a world where people did exactly what…

>>I recommend that you realise your arguments for a totally free market are exactly as useful as the arguments for a state controlled economy. It doesn't work because people will always screw each other over. This is the reason communism is not viable, and it is the reason libertarianism is not viable either. I believe people will screw each other over no matter what system you use. In a regulated economy people will…

I believe people will screw each other over no matter what system you use. In a regulated economy people will screw other people by lobbying for regulations that protect their industry from competition.

Just like people will always abuse the system. People hae learned to do this, especially in the US. Your solution is simply to make it easier for companies to screw people. Why don't people boycott companies TODAY when they do this? If they did, then I might support your argument. The fact is that there is no evidence for people doing this.

>People do that today as well. With a mandatory safety standard, you can probably raise quality in the short term, but there is a trade-off, in increasing costs and reducing innovation.

If they do they are thrown in jail. Now usually the people really responsible are not because of a failing legal system. That problem is not solved by just letting them do it and get away scot free.

Regardings costs. Peopme are so amazingly bad at making decisions as a group. It is mathematically provable that if everyone acts in their own best interest everyone can easily be worse off as a result. This assumes everyone is a rational actor, and we know that people are not even close to that which makes it even worse.

>The greatest force for improved quality and increased affordability is, in the long run, competition between entities free to innovate without the artificial constraint of mandates on their procedures.

>A great many industries were kickstarted by government subsidy. Another reason to oppose regulations against the free market is that regulations are subject to being shaped by special interests, who may deliberately push for them to be onerous to stamp out smaller competitors. Many small farmers blame food production regulations for the demise of their sector and the growing dominance of industrial farming.

This is indeed a problem, but your solution is essentially to just let companies do what they would otherwise be have to lobby for. Most lobbying cases are for laxed regulation or to allow companies to get away with monopolistic practices.

>Not categorically. I want a strong authority maintaining security and the right to freely contract, but I want that authority to not use its power to infringe upon those same contracting rights

We can argue the word "freely" then. I don't believe people freely enter contractual relationships when one side has a clear power advantage and actively tries to manipulate you.

And by the way, it's not a fallacy to appeal to moderation when overdosing kills you.

Since you believe that everyone should make their own decisons and we should just live with that. Perhaps you should consider that the system we have to day was born out of people making their decison to not have 100% libertarianism because they were smart enough. By your logic this would be all the reason you would ever need.

At some point you just have to realise that the requirements necessary for the system you want to outperform what we have are opposite to how people actually behave in real life. I hope you are young, then it is fine to be a bit idealistic. We all realise why things don't work sooner or later.

Re: China's Central Bank Bans ICOs

#365

Why don't rich people need protection? Here's the answer: this is their protection. It reduces their competition. Seriously, these securities rules keep people like me from investing in AirBnB and Uber (two that I caught very early and wanted into)... but we can all go to Vegas and lose $100k in a single weekend. But putting $10k into Uber's seed round is somehow a crime I need to be protected from? Truth of the matt…

When did you have the opportunity to invest in Uber or AirBnB? I really don't think at any point of time were random accredited investors with 10k able to invest in Uber...

Re: China's Central Bank Bans ICOs

#366
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not a trick question. Tax fraud investigation relies on bank cooperation. Bitcoin doesn't cooperate with anybody. They can make toothless voluntary requests though. More likely society evolves in the face of bitcoin to integrate or at least mitigate it rather than fight it, just like music delivery is chiefly now by streaming subscription services rather than album sales.

Bitcoin doesn't cooperate with anybody. Go try and turn your Bitcoin into cash and then tell me how true this statement is.

The purpose of bitcoin is to be used. Once it has seen enough adoption, you don't turn it into cash. It is cash.

Also I do local bitcoin transactions just fine thank you very much.

Re: China's Central Bank Bans ICOs

#368

Why don't rich people need protection? Here's the answer: this is their protection. It reduces their competition. Seriously, these securities rules keep people like me from investing in AirBnB and Uber (two that I caught very early and wanted into)... but we can all go to Vegas and lose $100k in a single weekend. But putting $10k into Uber's seed round is somehow a crime I need to be protected from? Truth of the matt…

1) In the alternate reality where you did invest in AirBnb and Uber, how did you manage to concentrate your investments in those two companies, and reject thousands of contenders who eventually folded down? If you also invested in 10,000 photo-sharing apps and "Yo" clones, what are the total portfolio returns?

2) In that alternate reality, what advantage did your money have over YC, Andreessen Horowitz or Benchmark money? Were you able to connect founders to top government decision makers, or bulk up their growing management team with hard-to-get candidates? If the answer is "yes", you could've been awarded advisory shares in Uber and AirBnb without being a qualified investor (a gift is a gift, after all). But since more likely the answer is "no, my money is no different than money from a joe schmoe down the street", you will likely be required to overpay for a ridiculous valuation at seed stage. What effect would that have on your portfolio as a whole?

Re: China's Central Bank Bans ICOs

#369
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It ultimately comes down to what flavour of politics you subscribe to. The key question is whether you think that the public should be protected against the abuses of the free market, or if the free market should be a complete free-for-all. For example, Dodd-Frank solved a concrete problem, and there have been countless studies that show it it responsible for stabilizing the US economy. But ultimately, wanting to die…

Those "studies" are self serving. That is the political propaganda keeping you feeling safe in having your rights violated. This isn't a question of flavor of politics- but fundamental rights. Do you have freedom of association or not? Secondly, you think its "fairly clear to [you]" that these ICOs are scams. I am sure some are, but I know for a fact that many are not. I am quite capable of telling the difference (as…

> It's my right to apply my own discernment to what are good and what are bad investments.

Let's say, hypothetically, that someone is not as good as you at stock picking, and they make extremely bad investment choices, added and abetted by an army of "wolves of wall street" all selling penny stocks that "are guaranteed to go big".

Once they arrive at their 0% ROI at retirement stage, don't they rely then on a government-provided safety net for various survival needs? Shouldn't the government then have a say, or at least some interest, in decreasing the probability of such extremely bad choices?

Re: China's Central Bank Bans ICOs

#370

Does this spell trouble for Ethereum? Without ICOs (one of it's major features if not the most important one) what else will drive the price speculation? I believe prices are inflated because of ICOs. People are buying tokens counting on ICO hype to increase their value so they can flip their initial invested principal with 2x/3x/4x return. Without ICOs this speculative technique will not be possible so we will see h…

You are a Chinese miner with a rather large BTC or ETH balance. There's no retail acceptance of either for you to spend your cryptocurrency, and the closest you can get to converting it to cash is through Bitfinex in Taiwan and even that can be filed under "maybe" https://crushthestreet.com/articles/breaking-news/bitfinex-h...

ICOs are among the few remaining opportunities to achieve liquidity for large BTC/ETH account balances.

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