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ESPN Football Analyst Walks Away, Disturbed by Brain Trauma on Field

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Re: ESPN Football Analyst Walks Away, Disturbed by Brain Trauma on Field

#361
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I stopped following football after watching League of Denial on PBS." The reason I cannot stop watching football is that the combination of enormous economic incentives and ruthless selection process has produced individuals that are performing at near-superhuman levels. It is arguable that when you watch a quarterback or a cornerback play well in 2017 you are watching someone do something better than anyone has eve…

I think the best sport for that is actually basketball. NBA contracts are far more lucrative, and NBA rosters far smaller, and injuries are far less common, which makes NBA players more athletic and talented than NFL players by far. Consider also the fact that many great NBA players were also standout high school football players who gave it up for basketball. You don't really see that happening the other way. NBA pl…

They're not most lucrative if you consider 16 games for the NFL versus 82 for NBA. The NFL actually makes more than the NBA as well (they just have a better revenue share deal, less players, max contract rules, etc) [1]. Injuries are far less common in basketball because the rules made it so. Everything is a foul these days. And you can't score points in foul trouble so the defense isn't as aggressive as it used to be. The league rewards points with crazy contracts disproportionate to your defensive skillset (JJ Redick got 23M for 15 PPG) so it's best to avoid fouls with lighter D and reap the financial benefits. In football you have to take more risk because there are only 16 games and if you're a skill player you don't get a lot of opportunities from game to game.

Consider the evolution of the NBA rules over the last few decades:

- Most players routinely carry the ball and get away with it despite it being a core basketball rule. That makes it easier to drive quicker to the basket, evade defenders and score more points which is what the league wants.

- There's way too much flopping/acting to draw fouls. Again - results in more points and the refs favor the stars that drive the league.

- Traveling is rampant and calls are missed all the time. Here's an 8 stepper: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VuG1K-LFgY. Here's Westbrook just walking with the ball in hand: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTlHqD45V5s. They don't watch it close enough and it's frustrating because they have favorites and they don't get to review travels. Challenges in football help to fix a lot of critical bad or no calls. From a key NBA ref - "We really don't reference the rulebook" [2].

NFL defensive schemes make NBA defensive schemes look childish. So I disagree with you on the decision making skills for the two sports. There's a lot more decision making skills required for football especially when someone like Peyton Manning or Tom Brady is running the offense essentially as a player/coach and running audibles/sending guys in motion/disguising plays and each team has highly varied playbooks. A single split second mistake on defense in football is a big deal. On basketball - it rarely affects the outcome.

Now I love both sports and football has suffered from the same initiative of trying to enable more points scored (just like baseball did), but I don't think it's fair to say that NBA players are more talented and athletic either. In fact - you probably won't see a single NBA player stronger or faster than the top performers in the NFL. NFL players regularly outperform NBA on the standing vertical too (2 football players did a 46" standing vert [3]). So for athleticism - NBA might win on running vertical in some cases/years and in overall conditioning, but they won't win in any speed/standing vertical/any measure of strength (reps or max). So it might be a wash at best for the NBA in athleticism. For talent I'm not sure either way. Can you really compare passing and running the offense between Steph Curry and Tom Brady? Or defense between Kawhi Leonard and Richard Sherman? Saying the NBA has more talent because they are in the game more and play both sides is like saying a full stack developer making more (and working more) has more talent than a more specialized developer.

[1] http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-nfl-made-13-billion-las...

[2] http://www.espn.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/6035/nba-traveli...

[3] http://postemaperformance.com/highest-vertical-jump/

Re: ESPN Football Analyst Walks Away, Disturbed by Brain Trauma on Field

#362
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I stopped following football after watching League of Denial on PBS." The reason I cannot stop watching football is that the combination of enormous economic incentives and ruthless selection process has produced individuals that are performing at near-superhuman levels. It is arguable that when you watch a quarterback or a cornerback play well in 2017 you are watching someone do something better than anyone has eve…

I think the best sport for that is actually basketball. NBA contracts are far more lucrative, and NBA rosters far smaller, and injuries are far less common, which makes NBA players more athletic and talented than NFL players by far. Consider also the fact that many great NBA players were also standout high school football players who gave it up for basketball. You don't really see that happening the other way. NBA pl…

"You don't really see that happening the other way."

I think you do ... I think a large number of professional football players were college baseball players and professional (baseball) prospects.

One of the better known examples being John Elway:

"Elway also excelled as a baseball player. He was selected by the New York Yankees in the second round of the 1981 Major League Baseball draft (52nd overall, six spots ahead of future Hall of Famer Tony Gwynn), and received $150,000 for playing for the Yankees' short season affiliate Oneonta Yankees in the New York–Penn League in the summer of 1982.[18] Yankees scout Gary Hughes believed that had Elway concentrated on baseball "the sky was the limit … he would've been off the charts"."

I am also reminded of Antonio Gates who played for the San Diego Chargers but was a basketball player for Kent State University.[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Gates

Re: ESPN Football Analyst Walks Away, Disturbed by Brain Trauma on Field

#363

It's become increasingly difficult for me to watch football as well. I really enjoy the sport, but the research is pretty unforgiving. I can still justify watching the NFL because the players are getting paid very well, and at least at this point are aware of the risks. But it is impossible for me to justify watching college anymore. I was always leary of the billion dollar contracts conferences were signing, while s…

Players are getting paid pretty well, but for some reason they don't know how to manage their money.

"According to a 2009 Sports Illustrated article, 78% of National Football League (NFL) players are either bankrupt or are under financial stress within two years of retirement" [1]

1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_finances_of_professio...

Re: ESPN Football Analyst Walks Away, Disturbed by Brain Trauma on Field

#364
post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rugby and league have no padding and those rules. It doesn't appear to anywhere close to enough.

>no padding This is offered as a solution a lot, but I am not sure if it would actually be effective. Football helmets were introduce early in the 20th century because dozens of people were dying every year playing football. Football helmets put an end to those deaths caused by acute trauma, but the physics of the game and those collisions haven't changed. Football is just a more violent game than Rugby due to variou…

> It is rare to have two players in rugby running full speed at each other head on.

When they run towards each other, due to the rules, they don't just try and collide and call it a "tackle". I agree football is a more violent game intentionally but it's purely how the game is played and if you change the rules you'd have teams finding ways to play differently, with different skillsets prioritised.

Re: ESPN Football Analyst Walks Away, Disturbed by Brain Trauma on Field

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the best sport for that is actually basketball. NBA contracts are far more lucrative, and NBA rosters far smaller, and injuries are far less common, which makes NBA players more athletic and talented than NFL players by far. Consider also the fact that many great NBA players were also standout high school football players who gave it up for basketball. You don't really see that happening the other way. NBA pl…

They're not most lucrative if you consider 16 games for the NFL versus 82 for NBA. The NFL actually makes more than the NBA as well (they just have a better revenue share deal, less players, max contract rules, etc) [1]. Injuries are far less common in basketball because the rules made it so. Everything is a foul these days. And you can't score points in foul trouble so the defense isn't as aggressive as it used to b…

> They're not most lucrative if you consider 16 games for the NFL versus 82 for NBA.

NFL contracts aren't guaranteed and they're still lower on an annual basis than the NBA. The biggest star QB's in the NFL might be Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers, but Brady makes less than the second highest earning player on the Celtics and Rodgers makes less than the highest earning player on the Bucks. NBA minimum contracts are also higher. If you can make it in either league and you want to maximize your earnings, you would be an idiot not to choose the NBA.

Added to this is the fact that there are 450 NBA players in the entire league compared to over 1600 NFL players. That makes it more exclusive almost by definition.

I'm not sure how not calling travels or carries reduces the risk of injury in basketball, but Westbrook did get called for the travel that you linked to.

> NFL defensive schemes make NBA defensive schemes look childish.

Because they only have to last for 2-7 seconds before you have a 40-second break where the coach can radio a new set of instructions. And in the NFL, both offensive and defensive plays are memorized and executed by rote, except for the 2-5 quarterbacks in the league who can adjust or call a different set play by themselves. Even the quarterback isn't redirecting his teammates on the fly the way a point guard does, and no player in football does that kind of work on the defensive end the way Draymond Green does.

I can't believe you're making a serious argument that the NFL requires more athleticism when half the players are morbidly obese and the other half never have to exert themselves for more than five seconds at a time. It's slightly more athletic than baseball, but if NFL players had the athletic ability to outperform NBA players, they would be in the NBA purely out of financial incentive.

Re: ESPN Football Analyst Walks Away, Disturbed by Brain Trauma on Field

#366
post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the best sport for that is actually basketball. NBA contracts are far more lucrative, and NBA rosters far smaller, and injuries are far less common, which makes NBA players more athletic and talented than NFL players by far. Consider also the fact that many great NBA players were also standout high school football players who gave it up for basketball. You don't really see that happening the other way. NBA pl…

"You don't really see that happening the other way." I think you do ... I think a large number of professional football players were college baseball players and professional (baseball) prospects. One of the better known examples being John Elway: "Elway also excelled as a baseball player. He was selected by the New York Yankees in the second round of the 1981 Major League Baseball draft (52nd overall, six spots ahea…

Players go from baseball to football, sure. But, to name two examples, LeBron James and Allen Iverson, as high school prospects, could have made it to the NFL but chose basketball instead. (AI played high school football in the same part of Virginia that Michael Vick was from and was considered the better prospect.) I don't think there are any NFL players who could have made it to the NBA.

Re: ESPN Football Analyst Walks Away, Disturbed by Brain Trauma on Field

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"football is one of the most engaging team sports" Do you mean Association Football there, ie "soccer"?

For a few hundred million in the world it's soccer, for billions of people, it's football.

For me it's "football", I was looking for disambiguation. People in the UK often hate USA-ians calling it soccer, despite that name coming from the UK. The comment was a question, hence the punctuation.

Re: ESPN Football Analyst Walks Away, Disturbed by Brain Trauma on Field

#368
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rugby and league have no padding and those rules. It doesn't appear to anywhere close to enough.

Rugby is a much better analogue to gridiron - it's essentially the same game. Two lines of players run at each other, with a certain number of attempts to run the ball downfield, and almost every 'play' has contact of players running in opposite directions. Aussie Rules is much more freeform and has fewer 'opposing hits'. However, much as we aussies like to mock gridiron for the pads it requires, without the pads, pl…

Rugby is a much better analogue to gridiron - it's essentially the same game.

The huge and essential difference is that in gridiron the players in the 'scrum' start ~2m appart and run towards each other head first at full speed. And while most players in rugby can go several plays without taking a hit, linemen take a significant hit basically every single play.

Re: ESPN Football Analyst Walks Away, Disturbed by Brain Trauma on Field

#369
post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I was a trained boxer I'd be way more worried about killing someone accidentally, with or without a broken hand.

In Australia, trained fighters who get into fights at bars for whatever reason have been charged with "weapons" charges, as their body is considered one (as opposed to the untrained person they're fighting)

In France I think it's similar. Martial Arts, boxing .. if you pass a certain level you're liable in case of serious injuries.

Re: ESPN Football Analyst Walks Away, Disturbed by Brain Trauma on Field

#370
post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rugby and league have no padding and those rules. It doesn't appear to anywhere close to enough.

>no padding This is offered as a solution a lot, but I am not sure if it would actually be effective. Football helmets were introduce early in the 20th century because dozens of people were dying every year playing football. Football helmets put an end to those deaths caused by acute trauma, but the physics of the game and those collisions haven't changed. Football is just a more violent game than Rugby due to variou…

I too was going to suggest the counter-intuitive 'remove the helmets' until you said that. Wasn't it the case that there were some form of padded helmet then? What was it like when there was no headgear of any sort? It is still a fact that there isn't this brain trauma issue in professional rugby. As a former player I assure you the contact is real and I suffer for it every day but thankfully not my brain - (well you be the judge). :)
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