Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t • Hacker News Board

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#361

Post by gaius » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 2:46 PM UTC

greenshackle2 wrote: post #353

gaius wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well there is the BCS but it is completely irrelevant and it's a mystery how it still exists. It does absolutely nothing for working engineers and seems to be just a front for large employers to perpetuate the skills shortage myth while unemployment among CS grads hovers between 10 and 13%.

[citation needed] on that unemployment figure. Is that a unemployment for recent graduates, or anyone with a CS degree? I find that figure surprising because: 1) https://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2014/11/19/the-colle... 2) This is purely anecdotal, but I've had no problem finding jobs as a self-taught programmer in Canada. I'm paid nearly 6 figures with 3 years of experience in a field where I don't have formal…

Here you go - 14% according to https://www.theguardian.com/higher-education-network/blog/20...

The Graun being the Graun they can't make the leap of logic to "supply and demand".

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#362

Post by moon_of_moon » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 2:47 PM UTC

Two possibilities:

1] She brought value to the table and was discriminated against.

2] She brought little value to the table, was one of those whiny entitled people (ooh look I have all these degrees, now I should automatically be promoted), who cannot accept the truth, and resorted to sleeping with a senior partner to compensate and when it all fell apart she got offended.

It could be either.

She has to convince the world it was [1] not [2].

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#363

Post by sampo » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 2:49 PM UTC

bgarbiak wrote: post #304

bobcostas55 wrote: post #287

>and downplays the impact of obvious and unobjectionable steps like [..] "give expectant mothers maternity leave" This is a bit off-topic, but maternity leave is neither obvious nor unobjectionable. There is significant empirical evidence that shows that policies such as long paid maternity leave harms women's wages and career progression. Have a look at: * The impact of Nordic countries’ family friendly policies on…

But you want humans to have children, right? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think fathers in Norway are forced to take a maternity leave, which are equally long as mothers' leaves. That's seems like a fair solution.

> But you want humans to have children, right? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think fathers in Norway are forced to take a maternity leave

In Norway, if you choose the 100% paid leave, it's 10 weeks for the father and 10 weeks for the mother and then 26 weeks distributed between the father and the mother however they like. But those 10 weeks of the father's paternity leave you cannot transfer to the mother.

But it's not forced: If you'd rather work than take 10 weeks of 100% paid leave, you can. The Norwegians might find it hard to understand why someone would not take the leave, but different countries have different cultures.

https://www.nav.no/en/Home/Benefits+and+services/Relatert+in...

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#364

Post by direfungasaur » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 2:50 PM UTC

strken wrote: post #183

Articles like this really make me aware that men and women like Ellen Pao and her former partners live in a separate parallel world: three degrees, $10 million golden parachutes, private jet flights to ski resorts, affairs with a creepy married co-worker in Germany, machismo-driven muscling for VC connections, bisexual finance wizards who kickstart an Ivy-League LGBT program, dominance games over which chair an exec…

obvious and unobjectionable steps like "recruit junior devs from the ranks of biology grads

I don't follow how this is an obvious decision. Would you please elaborate? If the target software isn't dealing with the biology domain, why would I prefer biology grads over computer science grads? It seems like the lack of formal knowledge around CS fundamentals could prove a hindrance, while the biology knowledge wouldn't be an asset.

This principle may be workable for some portion of the work space, especially for your typical webapp or webservice. We flout the 'anybody can learn to code' concept, and that's true to some extent. But if the domain space is low-level hardware, highly algorithmic or heavy in the domain modeling space it seems completely reasonable to prefer someone with a formal background in CS.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#365

Post by enraged_camel » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 2:50 PM UTC

ralusek wrote: post #64

icebraining wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't find it remotely hard to believe that Ellen Pao's recounting of her experience in the world of venture capital is far from the truth Can you clarify this? I'm confused because it seems at odds with the rest of your post.

My point is that a lot of engineers get very annoyed when the topic of "sexism in Silicon Valley" is brought up, because anybody who is in a hiring position for specifically engineering knows exactly how utilitarian the hiring process is. For positions and treatment of individuals working in venture capital, however, I don't imagine very many engineers would have much to weigh in on. So what I'm getting at is that I'…

Your entire position seems to be:

Traditional barriers to entry, such as having a college degree, tend to be ignored in a small subset of programming jobs (notably Silicon Valley).

Therefore, the hiring process in programming is more utilitarian than many other industries. Your talents and accomplishments matter the most in getting you hired.

Therefore, sexism in tech is exaggerated.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#366

Post by abritinthebay » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 2:50 PM UTC

marmaduke wrote: post #322

whostolemyhat wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a strange view - you don't care about Pao's side of the story because she's not a complete paragon of virtue? You also seem to be basing that on her time at Reddit, during which, as the article mentions, she was being smeared by Kleiner?

> Pao's story is important to tell, but she lacks the personal credibility for people to care. Was a clear way to say the story is relevant but unfortunate choice of storyteller

Yes, but it was also clear that this view is unsupported and irrelevant to the point of the story.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#367

Post by monktastic1 » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 2:50 PM UTC

justadeveloper2 wrote: post #273

strken wrote: post #183

Articles like this really make me aware that men and women like Ellen Pao and her former partners live in a separate parallel world: three degrees, $10 million golden parachutes, private jet flights to ski resorts, affairs with a creepy married co-worker in Germany, machismo-driven muscling for VC connections, bisexual finance wizards who kickstart an Ivy-League LGBT program, dominance games over which chair an exec…

I got a bit confused when she ticked off her resume--how does anyone get that much experience at all top flight companies in just a compressed amount of time? Despite the obvious issues she has faced, my career is a completely dead, non-starter compared to hers so how can she complain? Also, I think places like Kleiner don't need to exist and the world would likely be a better place without them. But that's just my t…

"How can she complain?" Did you hear what she had to put up with? Are any of us such saints that we wouldn't be upset? I'm definitely not.

Also, consider what she might have accomplished without those hurdles.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#368

Post by nailer » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 2:53 PM UTC

p49k wrote: post #332

bane wrote: post #290

I think it's very important to parse Pao from the reprehensible behavior she describes in her workplace. Being polite, Pao does not come off well in her own personal story. But she was also swimming in a garbage pit. I have no doubt that what she writes about is true, and probably even holds back on much of the frat house nonsense. There can be entire semesters spent at school exploring other avenues that she might h…

What specific behaviors of Pao would you compare to the constant harassment and mistreatment she experienced at KP? From my recollection, most of the criticism she received was related to poor decisions she made at Reddit, and it has since been revealed by Yishan Wong that she was not actually the person who made those decisions and that she was used as a scapegoat.

I never understood why Pao just didn't say one of the founders (IIRC) fired the AMA woman and that, despite being the CEO, it wasn't her decision. Everyone was angry at Pao for something she didn't do.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#369

Post by wyldfire » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 2:54 PM UTC

dreta wrote: post #69

An interesting read. Though, for me, VC in general is not the kind of job that favors people who are nice. When people are rude to you, or try to use you, there's a multitude of ways you can interpret that. For Ellen, it's sexism. What baffled me was that in the opening paragraphs she felt the need to point out that the powerful men were white. For me, it set the tone for the whole article, and painted a clear pictur…

I didn't get that from this article at all. It seems like she made clear points about how she was treated differently from her male colleagues. The story didn't strike me as "people are rude [and Pao has contorted the rudeness into sexism]."

All I could think as I read this is that "gee, I would really hate being a woman in that environment."

Maybe the high-stakes of VC just means that the amplitude of this entire system is higher than a "normal" tech job? "Mild/ordinary" sexist things like not advancing and not being allocated interesting/challenging tasks are replaced by conversations about porn stars at work.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#370

Post by Chris2048 » Mon, Aug 21, 2017, 2:55 PM UTC

b4ux1t3 wrote: post #343

Chris2048 wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, we just shift to the meaning of "being a dick", another subjective term. If you want to pin down a concept, you can't just deal with easily categorised instances - the real distinctions exist in the grey areas. There's a multi-dimensional gradient between polite and impolite, and where the thresholds lie is determined by personal value. Pick points far enough to either side, and most of those thresholds will f…

There are arbitrary, unambiguous, agreed upon standards of politeness. You don't curse people out. You don't sexually harass women (or men, for that matter). You don't show up for work late every day, smelling like a brewery. However, those are all things that I've personally seen these so-called "talented" individuals do, because they think their talent makes them immune from criticism. And, sure, that's just my own…

Those are all unprofessional. But the point I originally made was with regards to professional being defined "respect and empathy" etc etc.

To what degree tech does, or should, value "professional"/polite behavior is a different topic.