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About This Googler's Manifesto

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Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#361
post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because postmodernist and neomarxist ideas are appealing to idealists dreaming of utopia. It's quite weird that an article with 0 citations, 0 proper rebuttals of arguments in the original manifesto gets so much attention. It is pure leftist circlejerk. For example, show me a single study demonstrating proper effectiveness of unconscious bias training. HR departments in FB and Google have those. Studies of the effect…

Would you please not use HN for ideological battle? It is not what the site is for, and we ban accounts that primarily do it.

Sorry, should have left out "leftist circlejerk" remark.

Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#362
I'm Boaz from [Team Sabotage]. Our group handled these leaks so I want to address a few points about what we do.

Team Sabotage was started in 2015 as an evolution of the Memegen Consensus group.

Since then we have successfully leaked the existence of Memegen itself, the Yes At Google mailing list and, more recently, the Anti-diversity manifesto and the official company memo about it.

Our reasons to do so are powerful ones: We want everyone to be aware of what Google is really like on the inside: an extension of a college dorm that encourages childish and unprofessional behavior as part of the company's culture.

If you think Google execs have a faulty moral compass, you can't imagine how bad it is among many of it's employees.

To all the Googlers who started tweeting about this before it was public: What the hell where you thinking? I'm talking to you, Jaana Dogan, who threatened to leave Google if HR didn't fire the person who wrote the manifesto. Well, what are you waiting for?

Feel free to downvote this into oblivion and ban this account. At this point Team Sabotage has in excess of 500 members across all of Google's product areas and there's nothing you can do to stop us.

Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#363
post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are saying what the guy posted wasn't offensive and also that everyone is finding it offensive. This is exactly what's been going through my mind following the threads on this issue today. > That makes no sense unless everyone is stupid. I think this is a false dichotomy. The offended comments seem to be offended by arguments similar to those in the manifesto rather than those in the manifesto. E.g. offense is…

Actually, what I was trying to say was that the document cannot be simultaneously non offensive and yet offend everyone reading it unless "everyone is stupid = has bad reading comprehension" I don't think everyone has bad reading comprehension, tbh. It is what parts of the document that you focus on - the ones that align with your existing world view - that cause you to agree with it or get offended by it. Some see i…

> Some see it as "just sharing an opinion" and others see it as "questioning my capability of doing the tech job"

Could you point me to a quote taken in context that does that? I just reread the document and fail to see where the manifesto questions an individuals capacity of doing a tech job. I'm honestly trying but fail to see the offense.

AFAIK the author questions whether the percentage of capable and willing individuals is the same between men and women [1].

The manifesto also contains this quote to put the above in context

> I’m also not saying that we should restrict people to certain gender roles; I’m advocating for quite the opposite: treat people as individuals, not as just another member of their group (tribalism).

[1]: I agree with his conclusion that a non 50/50 split is not necessarily bias. The reasoning can't be discussed without the removed references.

PS: > "everyone is stupid = has bad reading comprehension" I disagree with the equality in general but I think your interpretation is fair as well - we probably just disagree on the context (e.g. did people pay full attention or even read the article at all).

Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#364
Ugh... having staff is going to be a pain the the arse isn't it :-/

I'm guessing if this guy knew everyone he worked with, say ~ 50 people, he would not dare to write something like this.

And yes I'm talking about both of these manifestos.

Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#365
Something just occurred to me, which isn't directly related to the original article, but is I believe relevant to the debate that ensued around it. Apart from any ethical, social and economical considerations, one of the easiest arguments to make against sexism is that even from the point of view of pure self-interest it is plain stupid. Passing on a perfectly qualified candidate because of what's between their legs (assuming that's not directly relevant to the position in question) is completely irrational and self-sabotaging.

While there may be high quality studies proving a preferable distribution of certain relevant traits in men or women, that information gives you at best some minimally higher chance that if you were to pick someone at random from the group with the better distribution they might be slightly more capable in that one particular way, maybe, which may or may not result in a higher qualification for the position depending on countless other factors and their combination or interaction with the trait in question. In other words it's completely worthless compared to the much more precise and specific information that you can gather from directly evaluating the individual in front of you.

Here's a thought experiment on the topic of enforced diversity. Disclaimer - I'm pulling the numbers out of the air and they aren't relevant. The example is also a little contrived for the sake of argument, I'm just trying to illustrate a principle.

Let's say we have a medical university that admits 100 candidates. The admission tests are administered and evaluated blindly, the professionals responsible for the evaluation aren't aware of anyone's gender, ethnicity, age, looks, they don't have any information beyond the content of the tests. They have also undergone bias awareness training, just in case, because why not.

The 500 candidates who apply are ranked according to their test results. In addition to these anti-bias measures, the university has a diversity goal of admitting 50% women (medicine is probably not the best example for this, but bear with me here). Now whether the enforcement of those goals is written in stone or strongly recommended with whatever pressure/incentives behind it, the result is quotas.

As it happens, for whatever mix of reasons, genetical, prenatal, environmental or social, at this particular time in this particular place only 40% of the top 100 happen to be women. The diversity goals however dictate that 50% must be admitted, so 10 men will be refused admission in favor of ten less qualified women. Let's say for the sake of argument that they all graduate successfully.

And now let's say I have to undergo a medical procedure and pick a doctor. I know for a fact that all 10 doctors available to me have been to the very same university. Not being an MD myself and not having any recommendations, I am in no position to judge their qualifications, so all I have to rely on is gut feeling and metadata. And I know for a fact that there's a higher chance that a female doctor from that university has been admitted on quotas instead of skill and I'd know that chance is higher even without the information how many women were in the top 100 because of the very possibility which does not exist for men. And now I end up in a position where gender mainstreaming and diversity efforts, in particular quotas, somehow managed to make sexism a reasonable, rational basis for making a decision, which wouldn't have occurred to me in a thousand years.

Without quotas, I have no good reason to care about my doctor's genitals or the color of their skin. With them I just might.

If that's not shooting yourself in the foot, I don't know what is.

Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#367
post #311
post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, I thought what the author said was hyperbolic until I read this response. Come on now. How many SF Bay Area tech workers would actually assault another employee over comments posted on the Internet? How many software engineers at Google have ever even been in a fight? This "punch you in the face" thing seems to be a sticking point for most of the comments here and I think people are misrepresenting what the auth…

> [...] raise into question the fundamental capability of every woman you work with [...] Can you please substantiate? Link to the "manifesto", https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-di...

Does this really need explaining? He lists certain traits he thinks are distinct to men and women. Clearly, "ability to handle stress" is important for every job. Measuring someone's stress and perceiving your own stress are highly subjective, as is the definition of success. The manifesto author acts like these things are all objectively observable, but they're not.

If you want a data-based analysis on which we can all probably agree, look at the success of Google. They've maintained these values over the years with the same founders and have found quite a bit of success.

Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#368
post #199

> And as for its impact on you: Do you understand that at this point, I could not in good conscience assign anyone to work with you? I certainly couldn’t assign any women to deal with this, a good number of the people you might have to work with may simply punch you in the face, and even if there were a group of like-minded individuals I could put you with, nobody would be able to collaborate with them. You have just…

> The heretic must be isolated and extirpated, with physical violence for good measure. More like "the [heretic] has burned any social capital or respect their coworkers might have had for them, and so no longer are capable of working in a collaborative environment with their peers"

More like "the [heretic] has burned any social capital or respect their coworkers might have had for them, and so no longer are capable of working in a collaborative environment with their peers"

This says more about the bigotry and intolerance of the coworkers than the author of the manifesto. It also confirms the manifesto author's point entirely about the echo-chamber hostility towards anyone who doesn't toe the line.

If someone can't read that thoughtful, polite, sincere, and clearly-written piece and respond without "losing respect for their co-worker", they are far too sensitive.

Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#369
post #199

> And as for its impact on you: Do you understand that at this point, I could not in good conscience assign anyone to work with you? I certainly couldn’t assign any women to deal with this, a good number of the people you might have to work with may simply punch you in the face, and even if there were a group of like-minded individuals I could put you with, nobody would be able to collaborate with them. You have just…

Textbook thoughtcrime punishment. People are fired for exhibiting corrosive, counterproductive, or otherwise bad attitudes every day. Are they all victims of "textbook thoughtcrime punishment?"

People are fired for exhibiting corrosive, counterproductive, or otherwise bad attitudes every day. Are they all victims of "textbook thoughtcrime punishment?"

The Google manifesto does not represent a "corrosive, counterproductive, or otherwise bad attitude." That so many people are insane or lazy enough to think it does is precisely the author's point.

Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe he's talking about punishing the overt act of publishing this large manifesto and the negative consequences that flow from it. Not the thinking or discussing his views.

Who would think that publishing a manifesto might have consequences?

Calling this a "manifesto" is mostly laziness. It is not actually a manifesto. It is a call to dialog. It is a memo that identifies and describes a perceived problem and thoughtfully follows through with some reasonable suggestions for what could be done about it.

While one can tolerate people referring to it as a manifesto for the sake of clarity, since his name is not common knowledge and there is no other catchy title associated with it, it's not reasonable to use that language to imply that what was written is actually a manifesto by the dictionary definition of the word.

A manifesto is a published verbal declaration of the intentions, motives, or views of the issuer, be it an individual, group, political party or government.

That is quite clearly not what the author's piece actually is.

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