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CEOs Want Their Offices Back

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Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#361

Post by s73ver »

ericd wrote: post #314
s73ver wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So here's one of the reasons I dislike not having offices: I actually really like having the lights on. I want things to be nice and bright. I hate it when things are dark and dungeon like. If we had separate offices, we could each make our space as we wish. I could be lit, and you could be dark. No one would have to fight over the setup.

You might get exactly your way with environmental preferences, but you miss out on the collegial atmosphere of working in the same space with a few other people you really like. I love that aspect of small shared offices, and was one of the things I really enjoyed about working on a small startup.

I don't think I would miss out that much. For one, that environment, especially with a place called "The Oven" sounds absolutely awful to me. Second, it's not like people would lock themselves in their offices and never see each other.

Third, and I may not like to admit this, but I'd complain quite a lot about the setup in a place nicknamed "The Oven". It might start grating on other people, and ruining the atmosphere.

Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#362

Post by zimzam »

jdc0589 wrote: post #87
jesseryoung wrote: post #50

It seems like when "Open Office" articles come out there seem to be quite a few people talking ill of them. I recently switched jobs and with it switched from an open concept (large room with whiteboards separating teams) to an office (shared with one other coworker.) Maybe I was conditioned to like it (I certainly didn't like it at first) but I really did prefer the open concept when working on a team of 8 or 9 peop…

This is why I actually like cubicles. you are physically close to your team, if your space is organized well you are on a common isle with people you work with, but you still have at least a little bit of isolation in your personal workspace. I DO NOT understand why cubes get so much hate.

I find that if there are enough conversations in an open-plan office the conversations blend together and I can tune them out (similarly to a coffee shop). At the cube-farm I worked at there would often be exactly one conversation happening at a time making it difficult for me to focus on anything else.

So I find cubicles to be the worst of both worlds: not private enough to have quiet but not loud enough to tune everything out.

Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#363

Post by rglovejoy »

chaostheory wrote: post #208
varelse wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like the cargo cult Agile pandemic peaked a few years ago, I suspect we're reaching peak open floor plans right now. The overall negative effects of an open floor plan for a significant fraction of engineers (though not all) is self-evident and backed up by reams of data stretching back nearly 40 years: http://iansommerville.com/software-engineering-book/web/work... TLDR: 100 square feet of personal space is opt…

> But square feet cost $$$ and switching to an open floor plan is an immediate cost cutter. This reminds me of the time companies used to try to save money by buying low powered computers. They didn't realize that carbon is more expensive than silicon.

I actually had a manager tell me that all I do is typing.

Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#364

Post by mmagin »

NTripleOne wrote: post #120
JustSomeNobody wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have brown keys and bottoming out is definitely the noisy part.

Buy some o-rings, they really do help with the bottoming out noise. Alternatively, train yourself not to bottom out.

Yep. Kinesis Advantage plus o-rings is plenty quiet.

Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#365

Post by mmagin »

rayiner wrote: post #26

> The lofty building Jordan Hamad moved his tech-advisory firm into four years ago had the trappings of a startup idyll: open floor plan, polished concrete floors , custom-built communal tables. Decisions like this make me seriously question the whole idea that our economy is populated by rational actors. Obviously polished concrete floors are a terrible idea in an office. Even if you believe that open plan works, th…

Also, communal tables?!!? I don't want to have to constantly deal with your clutter getting over onto my desk.

Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#366

Post by varelse »

dasmoth wrote: post #352
varelse wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair (and probably downvoted), _The Agile Manifesto_ is a great read IMO. None of its 12 principles mandate open floor plans, scrum or daily standups. https://www.smartsheet.com/comprehensive-guide-values-princi... Combine these with Joel Spolsky's 12 steps to better code and I'd call that a winning culture. https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/08/09/the-joel-test-12-s... But that's never how it turns out so "yo…

I'd agree with most of that, but for me the point where it starts to go off the rails is The most efficient and effective method of conveying information to and within a development team is face-to-face conversation. No, not mandating stand ups and open offices, but it's used to justify those things...

Really? Because one fantastically productive team I was once on implemented this practice by eating lunch together most of the time. I have never seen a more effective way of keeping everyone up to date and synced. Sure, they mostly talked about movies, TV, or WTFever, but whenever something critical was in play, it was all about work.

And of course, the manager of that team has not been promoted in over 1.5 decades.

Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#367

Post by blhack »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #338
blhack wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you type a lot over a prolonged period of time, yes. If you type in short bursts (like most programmers), no, mechanicals are actually useful. Is this really how most programmers work, though? When I'm learning a new language or tool, sure, but after that it's mostly just the activity of writing the code.

> Is this really how most programmers work, though? Yes, well, I guess it depends on how mundane the coding is. It is possible that a programmer spends a lot of time typing and not a lot of time thinking, but then it is probably brain dead boilerplate that should have been automated somehow. > When I'm learning a new language or tool, sure, but after that it's mostly just the activity of writing the code. I guess it…

Look, I'm not trying to get into an argument with you here, but:

1) You are not an authority on all programmers, or even most programmers.

2) The primary way that programmers express their work is by typing. The idea that programmers don't do very much typing, or that typing comfort/safety isn't relevant to programers is demonstrably absurd.

>"it is probably brain dead boilerplate that should have been automated somehow."

3) This thinly veiled derision is, imho, not constructive/rude. Do you consider the linux kernal "brain dead boilerplate"? Just some quick googling shows that the per developer code contribution is about 11,000 loc per release. That is code that was in the release, and doesn't even account for code that was typed, then removed, then retyped, etc.

Believe whatever you want, but I find the idea that programmers somehow don't need to care about ergonomics extremely shortsighted.

Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#368

Post by seanmcdirmid »

blhack wrote: post #367
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is this really how most programmers work, though? Yes, well, I guess it depends on how mundane the coding is. It is possible that a programmer spends a lot of time typing and not a lot of time thinking, but then it is probably brain dead boilerplate that should have been automated somehow. > When I'm learning a new language or tool, sure, but after that it's mostly just the activity of writing the code. I guess it…

Look, I'm not trying to get into an argument with you here, but: 1) You are not an authority on all programmers, or even most programmers. 2) The primary way that programmers express their work is by typing. The idea that programmers don't do very much typing, or that typing comfort/safety isn't relevant to programers is demonstrably absurd. >"it is probably brain dead boilerplate that should have been automated some…

Again, there is plenty of opinion that programming is much more thinking than typing. Any programmer who says they code at even 20 wpm is probably BSing, or are caught doing a lot of transcription work.

You can write 11K lines of code without continuously typing a lot, especially over a few weeks.

Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#369

Post by richardthered »

rglovejoy wrote: post #363
chaostheory wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But square feet cost $$$ and switching to an open floor plan is an immediate cost cutter. This reminds me of the time companies used to try to save money by buying low powered computers. They didn't realize that carbon is more expensive than silicon.

I actually had a manager tell me that all I do is typing.

This reminds me of an old parable:

There's a big manufacturing plant in town that's been around for decades. One day, a new company comes in and buys them out. The new managers look at the books, and say "Wow! Look at these crazy labor costs! There are way too many senior people here. Let's replace them with new guys, and we'll save a bundle."

So, they do that, and save a lot in labor costs.

After the first year, though, they run into a problem. The plant isn't working like it should. Output is down, and everyone's running around with their hair on fire, trying to figure out what the heck is wrong.

After two days of this, someone finally gets a bright idea: "Hey, why don't we bring in one of those old guys that we laid off?" So, they hunt down the most experienced guy they could find, and bring him in to take a look.

He shows up, and starts walking around the plant. He slowly walks up and down the whole plant, with a gaggle of concerned managers following his every move. Finally, he stops at a pipe at the back of the plant, and pulls out a hammer.

He lifts the hammer up, and whacks one joint really hard. Suddenly, the plant starts working again, and everyone is rejoicing.

The CEO is smiling, and pats the old-timer on the back, and tells him to send a bill for his work.

Well, the next day, the bill shows up. $10,000. "What!" he exclaims, pounding his desk. "Send me an itemized bill!"

The day after after that, a new bill arrives:

Hitting pipe with hammer: $5 Knowing which pipe to hit: $9,995

Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#370

Post by Tempest1981 »

ericd wrote: post #214
deepGem wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked at Sun Microsystems for a while and their private office layout was really nice. I can't ballpark the exact size but the office could hold 3 gigantic CRT monitors, 2 desk phones, and had space for 2 visitors. I feel that a 2 person private office is quite optimal, since we are talking about teams. It's easier to pair program or discuss and even maintain silence when required. Office designers will have to pa…

How would you feel about larger offices that fit ~8, and housed your entire immediate team, but no one else? Your manager would go to another room for their meetings with other parts of the organization, and you all would be free to collaborate as needed, or shut up as needed?

The optimal number of engineers sharing an office is closer to 2 than 8.

You might be able to convince me that it's e 2.71828...

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