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Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power

nytimes.com

361–370 of 398 posts

Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power

#361
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Fukushima incident is very far from potentially extinction level. You provide no numbers just do the usual empty nuke-bashing. Germany does what you described. They are so green they emit more CO2 since they went green. I guess when it will turn out that pumping more CO2 wasn't the best idea it will also be nuclear industry's fault.

>Germany does what you described. They are so green they emit more CO2 since they went green. In case people are curious about this claim the reason Germany's "renewable energy" releases so much CO2 is because a large portion of their 'renewable energy' is burning wood. Burning wood isn't "net neutral" until trees live over 100 years. Until then, it's worse than coal. http://www.pfpi.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/PF…

> a large portion of their [Germanys] 'renewable energy' is burning wood.

citation needed.

Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power

#362
post #29

A difficulty I've always had with nuclear power is the problem of clean-up. I'm not scaremongering and saying it's impossible, but it is inarguably expensive. Having a large amount of costs after all the revenue has gone away is a huge regulatory red flag: it's simpler to just structure things so that you won't have to pay. This problem applies to mining as well, but very little mining has to occur near residential a…

Do you have data that backs that cleanup is inarguably expensive? This article, which more concrete, suggests 5% of revenue is required to be saved. http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fue...

How about the mess that long term storage in Germany is in ?

The salt mine Assen that they put some nuclear waste in is now flooded. Getting the nuclear waste back out will cost several billions. I don't think they will even do it. So they risk contaminating ground water. That alone can be a cost of several billion.

And even if they do clean it up they are back to square zero in their quest for long term storage.

Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power

#363
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After reading years and years of discussions like this, it seems like the citizen opposition and (somewhat unfair) demonisation of nuclear power is endlessly repeated as the reason we don't have nukes anymore, despite them being a great source of clean(ish) energy. However it seems the real reason, as in all things, is economics. They're just too damn expensive to build and run, and the expected returns on investment…

> it seems the real reason, as in all things, is economics The economics might be different if we paid for the real cost of carbon-based energy, instead of imposing that cost on the world as an externality.

The Brookings Institute (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brookings_Institution) agrees with you: http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/papers/2014/...

Their study looks at different forms of electricity generation from the perspective of 'costs avoided' (e.g. avoided carbon emissions), net cost of generation (e.g. nameplate vs. actual generation), and total system costs (e.g. grid balancing / stabilising costs). On 'costs avoided', their base-case assumption is a $50 per tonne price on co2 emissions.

The study concludes:

"Assuming that reductions in carbon dioxide emissions are valued at $50 per metric ton and the price of natural gas is not much greater than $16 per million Btu, the net benefits of new nuclear, hydro, and natural gas combined cycle plants far outweigh the net benefits of new wind or solar plants. Wind and solar power are very costly from a social perspective because of their very high capacity cost, their very low capacity factors, and their lack of reliability.

For example, adjusting U.S. solar and wind capacity factors to take account of lack of reliability, we estimate that it would take 7.30 MW of solar capacity, costing roughly four times as much per MW to produce the same electrical output with the same degree of reliability as a baseload gas combined cycle plant. It requires an investment of approximately $29 million in utility-scale solar capacity to produce the same output with the same reliability as a $1 million investment in gas combined cycle. Reductions in the price of solar photovoltaic panels have reduced costs for utility-scale solar plants, but photovoltaic panels account for only a fraction of the cost of a solar plant. Thus such price reductions are unlikely to make solar power competitive with other electricity technologies without government subsidies.

Wind plants are far more economical in reducing emissions than solar plants, but much less economical than hydro, nuclear and gas combined cycle plants. Wind plants can operate at a capacity factor of 30 percent or more and cost about twice as much per MW to build as a gas combined cycle plant. Taking account of the lack of wind reliability, it takes an investment of approximately $10 million in wind plants to produce the same amount of electricity with the same reliability as a $1 million investment in gas combined cycle plants."

And here are my calculations on German solar and wind capacity factors (they're awful): https://gist.github.com/anonymous/f1a6d064890d67fbfc98d66dbd...

Not that anyone here will care about any of this. This issue has pretty much become a matter of blind religious fear & faith.

Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is large scale energy storage any better than just using nuclear energy? They don't have the "nuclear" tag scaring people away, but modern batteries and capacitors are still very dangerous and have a lot of environmental hazards to go along with them.

> Is large scale energy storage any better than just using nuclear energy? Yes. > but modern batteries and capacitors are still very dangerous and have a lot of environmental hazards to go along with them. This is just absurd compared to handling nuclear fuel and waste. https://electrek.co/2016/12/19/tesla-fire-powerpack-test-saf... "Tesla set fire to a Powerpack to test its safety features – the results are impressi…

If you generated all of the energy you used via atomic power at the end of your life the total size of that waste is about the size of a coke can.

1. How much lithium waste will be produced each year by this process? Aren't we talking creating more batteries than we ever have before by several orders of magnitude here? We send most of our ewaste to the third world to be burned currently, this sounds like an ecological disaster.

2. Do you really believe that in 75 years time the United States won't have the ability to safely store or simply hurl 400 million coke cans at the sun? A big project for sure but the reward is virtually unlimited, virtually free energy.

Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power

#365
post #279
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>...That mistrust is based on historical facts What historical facts would those be? Historically nuclear has been about the safest form of mass power when looking at accidents: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_accidents Anything at all related to nuclear is covered by the media orders of magnitude more than other power sources so people have an understandable perception that it is much more dangerous than the re…

People keep repeating the baseline fallacy, but that is what it is. http://www.ceem.unsw.edu.au/sites/default/files/uploads/publ...

Judging by that PDF, it's hard to call it a fallacy without palming a card or three.

Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power

#366
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear is actually one of the safest energy sources. http://i.imgur.com/EkYYLRh.png Plus carbon pollutants are known to be carcinogenic.

Put another way: coal kills about as many people each year as nuclear has in its entire history if you include the bombs dropped on Japan .

That is brilliantly put and I'm totally using it next time I have the energy conversation, and if it works as well as I suspect then just about every time after that too!

Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power

#367
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a relevant metric. If there's one thing the world has plenty of, it's area.

It's very relevant, because a) we need to reserve enough area for people to live, and for growing the food we need, and hopefully for a few parks as well, and b) transmission and storage of electricity across long distances is not trivial. It isn't feasible to, for example, cover the entire surface area of Africa with solar panels and use that energy to power the rest of the world.

I can put a solar array on my roof. Nobody is/should/can going to live under/close to a nuclear plant.

Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power

#368
post #161

The real concern here is making sure the existing nuclear plants have a clear glide slope toward end-of-life. Nuclear power is an extremely tight community. On the nuclear carrier I was on (powered by Westinghouse plants), there was a valve (a valve!) malfunctioning and the tech rep flown out from the company took one look at it and said "This bit's in backward". "How do you know?" "I designed it". Which means the sa…

> This, also, by the way, is a great illustration of Elon Musk's contention that these technologies don't just keep working. Brilliant, competent engineers and scientists have to invest themselves in making them work. Is this expressed in a paper, or conference that I can watch a video of?

Probably, but it's also intuitively obvious to anyone who's owned a car, or a house, or otherwise been responsible for the function of any reasonably complex machine. Things wear out. Things break. They have to be repaired or replaced if the process of which they're a part is to continue.

Knowledge is a crucial part of that, too. The Saturn rocket program is a great example - if we decided to go back to the moon tomorrow, we'd be a decade or more in the doing of it, because all the people who knew how to build those rockets, and the tools to build those rockets, and the tools to build those tools, and so on - are by now retired or deceased. We'd have to figure all that stuff out all over again, as nearly from scratch as makes no odds. There's no reason to imagine any other similarly complex technology would be different.

Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power

#369
post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even with newer designs, I think human error and regulatory capture is too dangerous to make COAL viable. Note the change from nuclear to coal. Just so you know, you get more radiation from coal burning plants than nuclear plants. Don't believe me: http://boingboing.net/2011/08/18/what-fukushima-can-teach-us... Original paper: http://www.pnas.org/content/108/35/14422.abstract tl;dr: Fukushima radioactivity measurem…

This. So much this. People don't know what the hell they're talking about when it comes to nuclear power, but it doesn't stop them from talking about it as if they were experts.

well, you described much of internet these days

Re: Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far the number of nuclear plant incidents has been pretty minor especially considering how many nuclear plants are in operation. Meanwhile how many people have died in propane bottling plant explosions? In coal mining? In off-shore drilling incidents? It's not perfectly safe, not even close, but it's statistically one of the least dangerous power generation methods.

Statistically, it's very safe to be a turkey on a turkey farm until shortly before Thanksgiving. A lot of stuff that is theoretically guaranteed to be a disaster looks very safe and profitable until shortly before disaster strikes.

The point being, historical statistics just don't tell you everything you need to make a decision…you need guarantees that all regimes have outcomes within acceptable parameters.

Accounting for Murphy's law, and that the worst case is always x% below your expectation (even after accounting for Murphy's law).

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