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Sweden brings back military conscription

bbc.co.uk

361–370 of 418 posts

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#361
post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Conscription is slavery I abhor hyperbole. Slavery is the legal ownership of one person over another person and their progeny. Since they are property, slaves have absolutely no rights or any access to the legal system. You commanding officer cannot rape or kill you with impunity. He/She cannot force you to do fight with another conscript to the death. Conscripts also get paid, while slaves do not and are well fed…

There are multiple degrees of slavery. Eg. The Roman emperor Antoninus Pius forbade the killing of slaves without good reason, but they were still slaves. Slave does not have to mean literally zero rights.

I have written now a quite many comments on this subject in various subthreads on this post, I'll try to summarize my position here ...

I'd rather say that the word "slavery" has been used for certain forms of involuntary servitude with often many common characteristics. (Worker has no rights to leave, no other political and social rights of the free citizen such as right to vote if it exists, and for all intents and purposes is considered a property of their owner.) Usually it has been distinctive cultural and often also a legal institution, separate from other duties and forms of involuntary work.

This form of is generally agreed to be an evil thing (actually outright irredeemable horror in the US context that often dominates English-language boards such as this), so of course everybody likes to call any form of involuntary work they don't like slavery.

The topic of ancient Greece and Rome have already been raised, the revolutionary France likewise. (I think it's still notable to reiterate that conscription has been prominently around with these both ur-examples of modern Western concept of citizenship.)

However, let us have a more modern example: consider hypothetical case where prisoner serving a term is required to clean up their room once per week. Out of blue this sounds reasonable. Is this slavery? After all, the prison administration could hire a professional cleaner to do it.

As a slightly more realistic example, the Western concept of prison has often included working as a form of rehabilitation right from the beginning. Sometimes the "rehabilitation" part has been genuine, sometimes not; sometimes the work has been simply a meaningless punishment: sometimes goods are produced and sold; sometimes the prisoner receives a token pay, sometimes not.

It's easy to imagine a problematic version where calling that kind of working "slavery" does not seem misplaced, but it is also possible to imagine scenarios where it does. And in any case, one is drawing a comparison to a more ancient institution.

In some regards there are similarities, but on the other hand, it's also misses some critical points and is at best a very uncharitable choice of word.

Same goes for conscription, especially in a liberal modern democracy where the draft is fairly egalitarian (contrast against the quite arbitrary press gang method of the British Navy of the wooden ships and iron men age), is temporary, citizens generally are allowed to emigrate out of the country during peacetime, can vote in any elections that happen when they are serving, and the work they perform is fairly unusual and exceptional service (compared to regular peacetime job) for the society in an exceptional situation. Would a compulsory EMT training for everybody and then a requirement to use those skills if possible in a sudden situation that warrants their use also be slavery?

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#362
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A credible deterrent in 2020 is not 200k dudes with guns. It's air and naval power. Expensive and complex hi tech death machines. Of course, a 10m country will never have a really credible defense against nuclear super power Russia by itself.

> 200k dudes with guns Conscript military doesn't mean that you just teach everyone to dig a hole and sit in it with a rifle. You train conscripts into every role you need in a 200k strong modern military. Including operators and maintainers of the hi-tech death machines, sigint operatives, radar operators, tank crews, missile forces, officers of all kinds, and yes, the guys that dig holes and sit in them with rifles…

At least in the US, right now, all the hi-tech death machines get maintained by contractors or civilian employees of the services.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#363
post #186
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't sound like conscription, then. If they didn't have enough people saying yes, do they start drawing from the "no" pile?

> That doesn't sound like conscription It's not, but the headline serves as a catalyst for a conversation people want to have anyways. That's how it works, folks.

If there's not enough voluntary participants they'll opt for forced labor. That's conscription. What do I miss here?

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My citation of popularity was to defend conscription from exactly the kind of reasoning you describe: "No one really cares about national sovereignty and it's just a few suicidal wackjobs whose quixotic desires shouldn't impinge on the lives of us normal people." I'm not the OP. And that 'reasoning' is a gross perversion of what was said. The OP didn't say no one cares. My reading of his comment was that no one sho…

What is your proposal for staffing a national defense force?

In my country, we have a professional military.

It's more expensive than turning teenagers into combat slaves (The Hunger Games?), but the people in the forces choose to be there.

It seems intuitive to me that highly trained individuals with combat experience and a mind for controlled violence would be better than amateur teenagers at defending a country. The military professionals I've meet are fearless under combat (so I've heard), don't panic when they've been shot, and can endure physical discomfort that would crush the average person.

Not that I'm particularly stuck on the above idea. It's the first off the top of my head.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#365
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You literally cannot use conscripts for anything of "operators and maintainers of the hi-tech death machines, sigint operatives, radar operators, tank crews, missile forces, officers." First of all, most of them take at least a year to get up to speed, if not more, and they have to maintain their competence. You cannot just release a conscript after his year long stint, and call him up ten years later - the ten year…

I was a conscript, and while calling me a "SIGINT operative" would be too much, I worked in a SIGINT role, with security clearance and all that. There are always things you can use rather unqualified (but generally intelligent) people for. I don't remember much, but I'm pretty sure I could fill that role again after a day of re-training.

It's interesting - Johnny Cash was a SIGINT operative in Europe in the 1950s. I mean headsets and notepads.

That's probably where he got a taste for amphetamines, at least one biographer thinks. "Here, take this, son. It'll keep you awake."

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#366
post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The traditional definition for a slave is a human who is treated as (usually tradable) property for their labor. I always like to point out that the predecessor to the Western civilization, the ancient Mediterranean, including Greek city states and then later on Rome, was famously built upon slave labor. Even the democratic Athens had a large slave population. However, in a Greek city state like Athens (or the earlie…

Another definition from the Oxford Dictionary is, 'A person who is excessively dependent upon or controlled by something'[0]. Being forced to fight in a war is being 'controlled by something'. In this case, a government. They're government slaves. [0] https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/slave

Yes, we also can say in English stuff like "Uncle Joe is slave to alcohol".

Here we are discussing slavery as a concept, which is different.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, will the new Swedish conscripts be securing any territory?

What do you think they'll be doing?>

If it's like it was in Germany they are probably drinking and messing things up.

Which is reasonable, given someone disrupts your life and gives you a force hourly pay that borders satire.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#368
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You literally cannot use conscripts for anything of "operators and maintainers of the hi-tech death machines, sigint operatives, radar operators, tank crews, missile forces, officers." First of all, most of them take at least a year to get up to speed, if not more, and they have to maintain their competence. You cannot just release a conscript after his year long stint, and call him up ten years later - the ten year…

But here is the thing: conscripts is everybody, including the best of the best. Professional soldiers have a tendency to not come from ivy league schools, and are often recruited from the less well off parts of society (citation needed). You probably won't find Gates, Zuckerberg or Jobs in the US Army, but he quite possibly would have been in the Swedish one.

Real professional soldiers come from the Service Academies and while they're different from Gates & Zuckerberg, they are among our nations finest people, at least when hubris doesn't get 'em.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#369
post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conscription is literally slavery. Taxation isn't slavery its an obligation to pay a fraction of what you earn ergo if you earn nothing you owe nothing and have no obligation.

Literally or literally? And that depends on your definition of slavery. It did not always mean every and all things involuntary, it used to mean trading people as property who did not have the same rights as a free citizen. Afterthought. I just remembered that some of the more radical leftists call working for a salary a wage slavery, which is similarly silly.

Not every society that practiced slavery regarded your slave status as an immutable part of your being nor does slavery require trade if you are born a slave in a family and live in bondage you are a slave without having changed hands.

To be a slave is to have your personal freedoms subordinated to another while people always enjoy a finite degree of autonomy which varies substantially from society to society and even between different socioeconomic groups if your owner can tell you where to go and whom to kill, and in fact to surrender ones life if asked then I cannot discern the difference between that state and slavery.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#370
post #84

What's the point of conscription? Surely there must be a good reason. Boosting the numbers of your military by forcefully bringing in some barely-motivated, hardly-trained conscripts that are discharged just a few months after completing basic training seems ineffective. Is there some larger "get the public used to military service" social goal?

We have a long history of conscription. I think it's a good thing. I think it's the moral choice when it comes to defence (but obviously not enough). That is because a conscript is not a professional soldier - and a conscript will never invade another country without good reason. Conscripts will defend their land, but not unjustly attack others.

Then I'd be a bad conscript. I don't even own land.
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