I assume, they are gonna sue those Chinese restaurants too?
I'm not sure of any Chinese restaurants that have federal contracts.
U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination
361–370 of 507 posts
Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination
#362Earlier quoted context omitted.
Since graduating college I've stayed continuously employeed at several different Bay Area tech startups, so I'm pretty sure I have at least decent technology skills. Yet I've been to several interviews where questions about race/ethnicity were brought up (and I failed to get offers from those companies that ask such questions). I can only imagine what it's like being a woman going for these positions. My point, a lot…
I am sure this has been mentioned to death. But I always find this contradictory. Companies cannot be soley profit driven if at same time they artifically reducing supply of eligable candidates. That makes no business sense. So if companies are rejecting someone that means as whole (read net), they are expecting more bang for the buck.
> Companies cannot be soley profit driven if at same time they artifically reducing supply of eligable candidates.
If there is a strong shortage of supply, you can be sure a lot of people will get over their prejudice -- but in labor markets, there often tend to be more offer than demand, so companies can choose whoever they want, without hurting the business whatsoever.
Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination
#363Earlier quoted context omitted.
1) Equality of opportunity will never lead to equality of outcome. Our current politics around equality are fraudulent. Different people have different attributes. It doesn't mean one group is better. It just means people are different. For example, the NBA will never be dominated by players of Asian descent. Another: you will never see women asking for equal opportunity for jobs like working in the north sea on offs…
I like how you are so sure that not even a single woman could possibly ever want to work on an oil rig that you bring it up in two comments without first attempting to Google it. Hint, they do want to work on oil rigs, they do work on oil rigs, and they have used legal action against those who wouldn't let them work on oil rigs because of their gender. That made up example is especially bizarre because I can't think…
You are insane to believe just as many women as men would want to work on oil rigs. There are many other examples: auto mechanics, miners, movers, truckers, construction workers, jobs on fishing vessels. I didn't "cherry pick" one example. Any gritty, dangerous, physically demanding job that assaults your senses is going to attract more men than women.
Just citing a single lawsuit as your evidence that the opposite is true, and extrapolating that to say "the facts don't match your worldview" is an assault on logic and reason.
Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination
#364Earlier quoted context omitted.
1) Equality of opportunity will never lead to equality of outcome. Our current politics around equality are fraudulent. Different people have different attributes. It doesn't mean one group is better. It just means people are different. For example, the NBA will never be dominated by players of Asian descent. Another: you will never see women asking for equal opportunity for jobs like working in the north sea on offs…
1) You've carefully chosen two examples of jobs that depend highly on physical attributes with well-understood genetic causes (height, muscular development), and you've extrapolated this out to technical employees at Oracle, whose skills are hardly defined by such well-understood genetic markers. This is faulty logic. 2) Just so we're clear, you literally just compared affirmative action to Nazi Germany and the Spani…
>you literally just compared affirmative action to Nazi Germany and the Spanish Inquisition.
No, I didn't. That's your misunderstanding. Go back and read what I wrote. No one is saying they're equivalent. What I did say is that government sanctioned force always comes with an argument of moral outrage, even if what they are doing is undeniably immoral.
I should expect more of these straw man, incorrect, borderline-troll-bait attacks. It's easy to just agree with what's politically correct. It's hard to fight for what's right and this is what you run into when you do.
Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination
#365Earlier quoted context omitted.
OK, I'll bite, why exactly do you believe women don't want the opportunity to work on oil rigs? http://www.warrensiurek.com/blog/2015/04/5-women-claim-gende... >The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission has filed a claim on behalf of five women against an oil drilling company in another state. According to the complaint, the women applied for jobs to work as floor hands on the oil rigs, but they were turned down. T…
No sane person genuinely believes just as many woman as men want to work on oil rigs, or that it's even close. That's a very surprising case, yet very American, lawsuit though.
If it's surprising to you that there are women who want to work on oil rigs, and want that badly enough to go through the trouble of making a case out of it, then you may need to update your beliefs about what it means to be a woman.
Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination
#366Earlier quoted context omitted.
>It's always going to be possible to find data that indicates discrimination, unless companies hire in exact quotas (which would also be discriminatory really). There already are off-the-record quotas. Who in management hasn't heard discussion at least eluding the the need for a diversity hire? Probably very few people at this point. I believe a distinction must be made: Equality of opportunity is good. Equality of o…
You know what, though? If we actually had equality of opportunity, it doesn't seem like we'd see the kind of disparity we do. Certainly not at a big corporation where there should be enough of an employee pool to have it at least somewhat reflect the general population of the region. But then, when I listen to the stories women in tech (for example) tell, and they do tell a LOT of the same stories, it's clear we're p…
I wish I could upvote this 1000 times. I think the counter arguments (haven't read the entire thread yet, and probably never will) often engage in abstract thought experiments, which are often very simplified models with tons of unspoken assumptions... rather than dealing with the reality on the ground. Which is often really ugly for women and minorities.
Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination
#367Earlier quoted context omitted.
Since graduating college I've stayed continuously employeed at several different Bay Area tech startups, so I'm pretty sure I have at least decent technology skills. Yet I've been to several interviews where questions about race/ethnicity were brought up (and I failed to get offers from those companies that ask such questions). I can only imagine what it's like being a woman going for these positions. My point, a lot…
I am sure this has been mentioned to death. But I always find this contradictory. Companies cannot be soley profit driven if at same time they artifically reducing supply of eligable candidates. That makes no business sense. So if companies are rejecting someone that means as whole (read net), they are expecting more bang for the buck.
Illiquid markets, stable equilibria (that are not at global minima), and irrational decision making.
Unless your model accounts for such things, it's too simplified. Particularly when it comes to human factors. And if your model is that deficient, it's not really providing useful insights.
Modeling complex phenomena well is tough. But you need to have enough humility to understand when your toy model might be deceiving you.
If the shoe fits....
Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination
#368Earlier quoted context omitted.
I like how you are so sure that not even a single woman could possibly ever want to work on an oil rig that you bring it up in two comments without first attempting to Google it. Hint, they do want to work on oil rigs, they do work on oil rigs, and they have used legal action against those who wouldn't let them work on oil rigs because of their gender. That made up example is especially bizarre because I can't think…
You are insane to believe just as many women as men would want to work on oil rigs. There are many other examples: auto mechanics, miners, movers, truckers, construction workers, jobs on fishing vessels. I didn't "cherry pick" one example. Any gritty, dangerous, physically demanding job that assaults your senses is going to attract more men than women. Just citing a single lawsuit as your evidence that the opposite i…
> You are insane
Let's not do this here, please. Also, you're discrediting yourself and your arguments before I even get to the substance of your comment.
Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination
#369Earlier quoted context omitted.
I suppose I simply hold some truths to be self-evident. Sorry, sorry, too easy :P . To more seriously and substantively address your point, variance in cultural values in part constitutes inequality of opportunity, no? A culture that values such-and-such Silicon Valley principle less offers less opportunity for development of Silicon-Valley-hirable skills. And variance in interests is caused in part by inequality of…
>you have challenged me to defend the assertion that equality of opportunity exists No, I most definitely have not. I challenge you to demonstrate that interests, cultural values, and other factors that influence professional qualification to be evenly distributed. This is a sine qua non condition for the claim that "equal opportunity begets equal success" to be true. If you want to define "equality of opportunity" a…
Good point, but please keep the conversation polite. It's one of HN's best qualities.
Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination
#370Earlier quoted context omitted.
I suppose I simply hold some truths to be self-evident. Sorry, sorry, too easy :P . To more seriously and substantively address your point, variance in cultural values in part constitutes inequality of opportunity, no? A culture that values such-and-such Silicon Valley principle less offers less opportunity for development of Silicon-Valley-hirable skills. And variance in interests is caused in part by inequality of…
>you have challenged me to defend the assertion that equality of opportunity exists No, I most definitely have not. I challenge you to demonstrate that interests, cultural values, and other factors that influence professional qualification to be evenly distributed. This is a sine qua non condition for the claim that "equal opportunity begets equal success" to be true. If you want to define "equality of opportunity" a…
I do want to define equality of opportunity that way. As you originally asked me to consider (before editing your post), the consequence that I believe would follow would be equality of outcome, give or take random sampling variation.
To respond to your newly edited (four times! ack! I am scrambling to keep up) comment: I do not want to argue that all groups of people are the same. You have already challenged me to prove the nonexistence of such difference. I have already refused. Your new phrasing has not made your challenge any more reasonable or relevant to my original post.
I'm honestly not even sure what you want me to say here...? "Yes, there are differences between ethnic/religious/cultural/racial groups. These differences contribute to inequality of opportunity, which... exists." Does that somehow nullify the question that I asked wallace_f?
EDIT: On something like your third or fourth edit, you took out the ad hominem attack at the end of your post. I will leave my response in brackets after this note, if only so that comment-readers don't feel like they are losing their minds. [You seem very touchy about this topic. Why do you feel compelled to say such mean things about my posts? What part of them made you feel accused of being a bigot? I don't understand, but I would like to.]