China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon • Hacker News Board

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

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Post by stevesun21 » Thu, Dec 15, 2016, 4:16 PM UTC

inputcoffee wrote: post #125

stevesun21 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If US attracts talent and they are all speak English, what reason you think that China cannot attract talent who are going to speak Chinese?

There are a few reasons: 1. You are usually effective and comfortable in the language you were educated in. 2. If you want to do business with a person in another language, you usually both default to English because it is usually second language if it is not their first. I mean look at your own situation. I assume that you are fairly well educated (on Hacker News, decent grammar, and asked a good question). Suppose…

I agreed with you about English vs Mandarin from education perspect and business trade perspect.

What I am saying is that China attracts talent who live in China and why don't communicate with others in Mandarin? Learn Mandarin isn't a binary choose for these talents who live in China -- they can still learn stuffs in English and do business with other people around world in English.

From my experience that learn English is not only about helping me to communicate with others, but also, help me to learn a different mindset and culture.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

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Post by woodandsteel » Thu, Dec 15, 2016, 4:49 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #271

woodandsteel wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really disagree with you. We have had a couple of dozen communist states, and every one of them has turned out bad. That's because communism is basically an unworkable system. See, for instance, Hayek's argument on information and economic decision-making. In fact, Marx claimed that capitalism in advanced economies has contradictions that would eventually lead to its being overthrown by the workers, but that has ne…

> I really disagree with you. We have had a couple of dozen communist states, and every one of them has turned out bad. That's because communism is basically an unworkable system. All of those have been Leninism or its descendants, which break strongly from Marxism. Starting with the required starting conditions. > In fact, Marx claimed that capitalism in advanced economies has contradictions that would eventually le…

Yes, they are mixed economies, but they are a long, long way from what Marx wanted. For instance, there has not been the dissolution of the state that he predicted.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

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Post by woodandsteel » Thu, Dec 15, 2016, 4:57 PM UTC

clock_tower wrote: post #307

dragonwriter wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really disagree with you. We have had a couple of dozen communist states, and every one of them has turned out bad. That's because communism is basically an unworkable system. All of those have been Leninism or its descendants, which break strongly from Marxism. Starting with the required starting conditions. > In fact, Marx claimed that capitalism in advanced economies has contradictions that would eventually le…

This is going to sound like concern-trolling, but I'd thought that Marx was afraid of the possibility of the Social Democrats winning (i.e., a modern mixed economy forming) -- since this would leave the current holders of property-qua-power still possessing it, while making the workers comfortable enough to no longer desire revolt. But my memory here's faulty, and I suspect it might have been Lenin who was hostile to…

From what I understand, Marx was opposed to reforming capitalism, since he thought it could steer the working class, at least temporarily, from the total revolution he was pushing.

I have read that Social Democracy arose in part from the failure of the working class to revolt and overthrow capitalism. In the communist movement at the end of the 19th century there were two different responses. One, lead by Eduard Bernstein, decided instead to turn to electoral politics and try to move the economy to socialism in gradual steps, and so they joined the other groups that had formed the Socialist Democratic movement.

The other group, lead by Lenin, decided to change the party into an elite group that would lead the working classes to revolution, and this lead to the communism movement as we know it and all the totalitarian states it produced.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

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Post by kmicklas » Thu, Dec 15, 2016, 6:05 PM UTC

serge2k wrote: post #299

kmicklas wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communist != undemocratic China happens to be neither communist or democratic

How is china not communist?

They don't even claim to be communist? The official line is "socialism with Chinese characteristics" which is already pretty misleading.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

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Post by webmaven » Thu, Dec 15, 2016, 9:41 PM UTC

aaron-lebo wrote: post #321

gaoshan wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But you are openly advocating about that, people will frown upon you, and will keep you distance. Having lived in an oppressively religious area (in the American South) this is one of the things I like best about China. It's a relief, compared to how it is in super religious areas.

Where did you live? If I felt like talking to someone about religion I'd have to go out of my way to do it. The urban areas in the South are no more or less religious than the North unless you are in a few cities (portland). The PRC on the other hand has actively persecuted religions/cults (the Falun Gong are a prime example).

> The urban areas in the South are no more or less religious than the North

Yeah... that definitely has not been my experience of urban areas in the South (mostly Atlanta, Dallas, and Galveston, assuming the latter two are considered "South").

It's subtle enough that I don't doubt that it isn't particularly noticeable from the inside, but as an outsider it was obvious to me.

Along with the general religiosity, there is also this pervasive assumption that everyone is a Christian that feels rather oppressive. I've only found Utah worse in that respect (the only state where I'm a gentile).

That said, Data is not the plural of Anecdote, and my personal experiences could certainly be far from representative.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

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Post by webmaven » Thu, Dec 15, 2016, 11:04 PM UTC

magic_beans wrote: post #140

irrational wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is, I grew up learning English ;-) Seriously though, I tried learning Chinese, but for the life of me I couldn't tell the difference between the tones. They all sounded the same to me. I don't know if it's related, but I don't have an ear for music (Music does nothing for me so I have never listened to it by choice). Spanish on the other hand is amazing. I know an handful of languages, but Spanish by f…

I find Spanish grammar very easy but it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to understand certain accents -- for example Dominican Spanish is really hard for me to understand.

I've found certain Spanish accents, in English, very hard to understand as well. The way Cubans can drop whole consonants[0] ("Smith's" can become "hmi'") is particularly vexing.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Spanish#Phonology

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

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Post by caoyangs » Thu, Dec 15, 2016, 11:58 PM UTC

ctchocula wrote: post #292

caoyangs wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

碼工 is also correct. Programmers are literally 程序員, where 程序 means program, and 員 means worker. People also call them 程序猿, where 猿 has the exact same pronunciation as 員 but means monkey. So basically programmers are also called code monkeys in China.

Interesting, didn't know that! Can you comment a bit on the context in which 码农 is used in China? I'm curious how it differs from the usage of "code monkey" over here where it's usually in jest/tongue-in-cheek.

农=farmer, 工=worker. I don't think there's much difference between 码农 and 码工. The 2 words are interchangeable. 码农 seems more common. The usage is also same as or similar to "code monkey", in jest, or self-deprecating when used by programmers themselves.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

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Post by dang » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 5:44 AM UTC

clifanatic wrote: post #360

sctb wrote: post #352

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We've already asked you not to post like this. We ban accounts that refuse to comment civilly and substantively. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Jesus Christ, Scrooge, it was a joke. And not even remotely contrary to any of those guidelines.

I'm sure you thought it was very funny but as the person who has to deal with the messes such comments provoke in large internet communities, I read the guidelines differently.

Please err on the side of posting civilly and substantively when commenting here.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

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Post by zpallin » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 6:03 AM UTC

zhemao wrote: post #355

zpallin wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Californian culture can be stifling at times at how "laid back" it is. There is a culture of lethargy and apathy here that can leave people wanting more, which is why so much talent that grows up here ends up moving to far more rigid cities and cultures like in New York. The rigidity of Chinese cities coupled with their liveliness makes for a fantastic escape from California. That and infrastructure here is absolutel…

Makes sense, and I guess I agree with quite a few of your points. I actually moved from New York City, where I did my undergrad, so I totally feel you on the horrible public transportation infrastructure. But I don't find California to be less lively. Granted, I live in Berkeley, so it's more urban than, say South Bay or the LA suburbs. I would consider moving back to NYC if the weather wasn't much worse and if there…

Fair enough. Berkeley and Oakland are pretty cool communities to live in and are very active.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

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Post by webmaven » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 11:44 AM UTC

__derek__ wrote: post #127

FilterSweep wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> developers have a low social standing in China But that's almost everywhere. As an example....I'm an ex-Silicon valley developer, but I am currently living in the Southeast USA and developers are scarcely understood or appreciated here, either. I must always be measured when I introduce myself, only mentioning my managerial responsibilities when I can tell the person does not understand what I actually do. The othe…

> "management of other people" is a key determinant of social status in some places That's because control of other people is the primary status marker in much of the US.

The disciplines emerging around mediated control of people through UX, copywriting, transactional email, algorithmic filtering, etc. (from garden variety A/B testing on through Facebook's emotional control experiment and beyond) prompt me to wonder whether that sort of less direct control of people will accrue status as well.