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Never accept a counter-offer

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Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You said, "Counteroffers are poison for both the employee and the company." That's a very strong position you're taking. My opinion is that counteroffers are poison, generally because some employers or employees have unrealistic views on what loyalty means, and it always turns out badly for the employee. > This is true, but inapplicable to the decision of whether to take a counteroffer. If the employer, management,…

> However, it's fairly common (especially for new managers) for them to think of employees looking for other jobs as a personal affront, and will make your life miserable. Why would someone who takes my looking for other jobs as a personal affront make a counteroffer?

Many reasons. Maybe he thinks you're indispensable to the team, but will never fully trust you any more.

Maybe he needs to close a deal with an external customer, and he doesn't have enough time to train up another person to take care of your job responsibilities, and he really needs to close that round of funding.

Maybe his hiring pipeline is dry, either because your skills are hard to find, or maybe because candidates picked up on his managerial faults.

Maybe he needs time to vet external consultants to take over your job, and needs you to stick around to train them, stick around longer than 2 weeks or however long you gave notice for.

All these situations are the worst. He thinks he needs you, but doesn't really want you around. That way you stick around in an environment where management doesn't like you, and whenever there is a viable alternative, they'll dump you for the alternative.

Edit: Another reason why the situation is bad is because management will never let on why exactly they're trying to retain you. They'll string you along until they figure that you're not longer indispensable, and then cut you lose. And you have no idea whether or not that's what he's actually thinking, or "I am an adult and I can respect the logical choices that this guy is going to make to better his career."

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, it's fairly common (especially for new managers) for them to think of employees looking for other jobs as a personal affront, and will make your life miserable. Why would someone who takes my looking for other jobs as a personal affront make a counteroffer?

Many reasons. Maybe he thinks you're indispensable to the team, but will never fully trust you any more. Maybe he needs to close a deal with an external customer, and he doesn't have enough time to train up another person to take care of your job responsibilities, and he really needs to close that round of funding. Maybe his hiring pipeline is dry, either because your skills are hard to find, or maybe because candida…

> Many reasons. Maybe he thinks you're indispensable to the team, but will never fully trust you any more.

It's my default position that my boss doesn't trust me. As you yourself earlier said, "I agree there should be no trust here, but we are conditioned to think that there should be." So, the answer is don't do that. Don't give in to the conditioning.

> Maybe he needs to close a deal with an external customer, and he doesn't have enough time to train up another person to take care of your job responsibilities, and he really needs to close that round of funding.

It's relatively clear when this is happening, though, because it's hard to hide when your replacement has been hired. If you can see this happening up front, you can leverage this to counter the counteroffer by offering to delay starting at the new place for increased pay (with your new employer's consent of course).

> Maybe his hiring pipeline is dry, either because your skills are hard to find, or maybe because candidates picked up on his managerial faults.

This sounds like an excellent situation to be in as an employee, as it means you have found a local minima in the supply-to-demand ratio.

> Maybe he needs time to vet external consultants to take over your job, and needs you to stick around to train them, stick around longer than 2 weeks or however long you gave notice for.

Again, it's relatively clear when this is happening, and in this case you may be able to work out a deal.

> All these situations are the worst. He thinks he needs you, but doesn't really want you around. That way you stick around in an environment where management doesn't like you, and whenever there is a viable alternative, they'll dump you for the alternative.

This sounds like literally every job ever.

Let's be clear here: at every job you've ever worked at, you're a cost center, and if you've worked yourself into a high-paying position, you're one of the largest cost centers. If your value ceases to be worth the money you're being paid they will get rid of you regardless of how they feel about you: it's hard to make feelings outweigh numbers. The problem isn't that a counteroffer has changed the situation--the situation has not changed. The problem is that you didn't understand that was the situation until you received the counteroffer.

If you're looking to be friends with your boss, I suppose that's a bad situation in that this might ruin your friendship with your boss. But if you're looking to be friends with your boss, that's going to significantly limit your career in more ways than just this. Your boss is not your friend.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many reasons. Maybe he thinks you're indispensable to the team, but will never fully trust you any more. Maybe he needs to close a deal with an external customer, and he doesn't have enough time to train up another person to take care of your job responsibilities, and he really needs to close that round of funding. Maybe his hiring pipeline is dry, either because your skills are hard to find, or maybe because candida…

> Many reasons. Maybe he thinks you're indispensable to the team, but will never fully trust you any more. It's my default position that my boss doesn't trust me. As you yourself earlier said, "I agree there should be no trust here, but we are conditioned to think that there should be." So, the answer is don't do that . Don't give in to the conditioning. > Maybe he needs to close a deal with an external customer, and…

It seems like you're trying to deliberately misread my statements and take them out of context.

I'm saying that once you realize there's no trust between you and your boss, and your boss realizes the same, the motives become clear. If you're naive enough to believe your boss when he says that "the company has invested a lot in you" and goes into a song and dance, you're in a bad situation because you've demonstrated that you're unable to recognize situations you're in.

> It's relatively clear when this is happening, though, because it's hard to hide when your replacement has been hired.

Often it isn't. He could either train from within, or slowly get people to start doing stuff that was usually on your plate, as is his right.

> Again, it's relatively clear when this is happening, and in this case you may be able to work out a deal.

Again, that is not relatively clear. He could be vetting consultants without telling you, and then blindsiding you, and at that point you've already lost your original offer (some of the time).

> Let's be clear here: at every job you've ever worked at, you're a cost center, and if you've worked yourself into a high-paying position, you're one of the largest cost centers.

Incorrect. At a consulting job, you are the product, and you are a value creator, not a cost center. The more they can bill for you the more they want you around. I can guarantee that they'd rather have you than a fresh grad.

Basically, I don't understand your hypothesis. You're saying "Oh, you can figure it out, so accepting a counter offer is ok sometimes". Sometimes it is, but most of the time it isn't, and you can't often tell the difference between the situations up front.

You will lose the original offer that you used to get the counter offer a lot of the time, and you're on an extremely short leash at work, really exploring the limits of at will employment, especially if your boss is the kind to hold unreasonable grudges.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#364
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have to wait a certain period before you get paid? Does this also work for in-house recruiters? Quite fascinating area really.

Most clients require a guarantee, usually around 90 days. Sometimes pay terms are sooner, so theoretically you could have to refund a fee if a candidate leaves quickly and you don't replace them. In-house recruiters are not usually paid fees like agency recruiters - they might get bonuses, but most in-house are paid mostly in salary with smaller performance bonus. Agency recruiters are usually paid little (sometimes…

Thanks for the detailed answer! Appreciate it.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#365
I've taken 3 counter offers at the same company. Will probably do it again if my current job search goes well. In a company like mine you can't just ask for a raise and expect to get it. However, if a key resource resigns wheels start turning. All the sudden they can give significant increases. Otherwise you grind it out year after year hoping for 3% but some people get nothing. I'm going to hate my life no matter the job. So I will work for the highest bidder or most leave time.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#366
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My recruiter practically broke down in tears when I accepted a counteroffer in 2013. Counteroffers can be great tools to increase your salary, whether you accept or reject them. In my case it was purely about money. I was making $117k and I wanted a raise, but the company only wanted to give options. If it were an early stage Google or Uber, I'd go for it, but not this company. I wanted cash. They played the old "not…

>I was making $117k >They beat my salary with an offer of $125k This barely seems worth switching companies for after tax.

$700 a month isn't worth switching jobs?

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#367
post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was the counteroffer on paper?

Honestly, it shouldn't matter. If the boss is making an offer like that, then it should be good as gold. If it's not, then that is not a place one would want to be working.

No. Always get it in writing.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#368
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You got really lucky. Normally when a company extends a counter offer what they're doing is buying time to ease you out on their terms.

This is the "razorblade inside a candybar on Halloween" of employment advice. I've been warned about it a million times, never even heard of someone who has heard of someone to whom it happened.

Nope. Seen it personally at least twice.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#369
post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What threat model are you defending against? umm, not really trying to prevent from folks actively sabotage the whole thing, but just seeing if it actually works i.e gives the correct average salary... but yes, as you have pointed out, people at N and N+2 can collude to get the original salary (for N+1).

Have a third party generate a set of tokens, one per person, recording only their sum, and randomly distribute them to the group. Then you don't need to pass the cumulative sum from person to person. Edit: I guess it doesn't even have to be a third party as long as everyone trusts the randomization (e.g., pulling identical pieces of folded paper from a hat).

Yes but you still need to trust the central authority then, meaning one person will know everyone's salary (he who generates all the tokens).

If you really want a cryptographic secure process, the key word to begin your journey would be "secure multiparty computation", and a very appropriate example in the book modern cryptography[1]:

[1] https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/courses/soco/project...

Basically your first solution but encrypt the communication between parties to prevent the n+1 - n attack.

edit - Only say infinite8s reply now, which is almost verbatim my reply including the same link.

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