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Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

reuters.com

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Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source? Those are extraordinary claims. I'm not aware of any other cheating anywhere close to the magnitude of what VW did. Also, what "defeat device" are you talking about? VW's cheat was in software; it wasn't some specific device. And are you seriously surprised that it can take 1.5 years for a massive multi-billion dollar lawsuit to wind its way through federal courts? If you think 1.5 years is long…

The "defeat device" was a specific piece of software that Bosch provided with the chips they sold. Also, it was 1.5 years from discovery to investigations being started. And regarding the claims: They’re not extraordinary. 4 companies have been in the original report that incriminated VW, others incriminated themselves [1], etc. Germany is deciding to ban GM cars in Germany because they used the same defeat "device"…

The wheels of justice grind slowly but exceedingly fine. VW is the largest and first target to be taken down, but hardly the last. I don't think your expectations of all of this getting resolved very quickly are realistic. Mitsubishi is currently being investigated by US regulators as of this past April, and will probably be charged on a similar timeline as VW. Keep an eye out for it. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mitsubishimotors-regulatio...

As for the Germans taking on Chrysler, good. If Chrysler did it then they should pay, same as VW has and Mitsubishi is going to. http://www.autoblog.com/2016/05/23/germany-fiat-chrysler-ban... No one deserves to develop lung disease because some stupid manufacturers decided to cheat on tests rather than passing them. I still don't see how this is a trade war, when it clearly looks to me like an environmental enforcement issue.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either way, I'm not sure what the point is in trying to shift focus to the newspapers or the politicians.

Well, the whole point of the exercise is that politicians want to have something in newspapers.

That's your hypothesis. Presumably it will be up to the courts to determine whether the raid on Google's offices was legitimate and necessary, or not.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually there is a misunderstanding. I didn't write about everything — I had in mind carcinogenic stuff, dangerous enough to make people sick and kill some (in a large population). So when you write "such a broad category" and you have in mind literally everything — then that's not what I meant.

Yes, but your definition for "carcinogenic stuff" most likely would be interpreted by activists to include e.g. glyphosate - which is now classified as "category 2A possibly causes cancer" and is getting a lot of attention. In reality, category 2A also includes manufacture of art glassware, hairdressers, and shift work, and the more dangerous category 1 includes e.g. beer. Still you can bet the activists would use ou…

Interesting, didn't know beer is carcinogenic. Googled about that — apparently, although alcohol it's carcinogenic, drinking a little bit, reduces the risk for cancer (and heart attacks).

Actually personally I didn't have in mind the possibly causes cancer category. I had in mind more obviously dangerous things like asbestos, and something that was in heavy use in Europe like 30? 50? years ago but then got forbidden because it resulted in severe birth defects. [Edit: I think it's called Thalidomide, was sold as a drug named Contergan]

Some activists do "attack" beer manufacturers :-) (I found out when googling for "beer carcinogens"). And this particular beer manufacturer did apparently listen to what people said, and removed some carcinogenic caramel coloring from a beer. http://organics.org/8-beers-that-you-should-stop-drinking-im...

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but your definition for "carcinogenic stuff" most likely would be interpreted by activists to include e.g. glyphosate - which is now classified as "category 2A possibly causes cancer" and is getting a lot of attention. In reality, category 2A also includes manufacture of art glassware, hairdressers, and shift work, and the more dangerous category 1 includes e.g. beer. Still you can bet the activists would use ou…

Interesting, didn't know beer is carcinogenic. Googled about that — apparently, although alcohol it's carcinogenic, drinking a little bit, reduces the risk for cancer (and heart attacks). Actually personally I didn't have in mind the possibly causes cancer category. I had in mind more obviously dangerous things like asbestos, and something that was in heavy use in Europe like 30? 50? years ago but then got forbidden…

Of course, being carcinogenic (containing carcinogens) and actually causing cancer are not quite the same thing.

But NGO activism does not attack just the actually dangerous things; it attacks things that can be used to raise money.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#365

I don't think there is a justification for big corporations to do what they do and they have to be pursued. I've been working for a bank in a tax haven in Europe and I've seen that financial engineering powerful people use has been a known and accepted tool for the governments for a while, and now that Europe is living a financial crisis governments start asking. These companies play in an absolutely different league…

Don't blame the companies. Blame the politicians that make the laws.

Another example of this stupidity by governments is making gambling illegal due to "morals", and then hosting a government-run lottery. Clearly their motives are not morals, but money.

Get involved with politics and get the laws changed. In so many of these cases, the laws are so poorly written that you could drive a truck through them.

I'll bet the anything Google did wrong here (legally) is minor at the most. Check back in a year and down-vote me if I'm wrong.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although great in theory how do you collect the pay the taxes for revenues collected in every country? A big business like Google can handle this but a smaller business will be crushed by it. Imagine a 1-2 person. Imagine a 1-2 person business selling online. Are they capable of paying taxes in a hundred countries? That burden alone would crush them. Try managing the tax rules for 100 countries as a 1-2 person shop.…

Also just to add to the complexity what happens for online websites. If you're from Australia and visit Google and the server is in the US and you click on an ad, the a houldnt the revenue, and hence taxes, be paid in the US because the server is located in the US. That's were the revenue was made. Assuming that's true then wherever you host the server is where you should be taxed. And in that case certain countries…

I up-voted this because it highlights the legal issue so clearly to any of us techies.

Clearly the tax has to be paid somewhere, and I'll bet every jurisdiction has an argument why theirs is the right place to collect it. No wonder tax or trade treaties take so long to negotiate.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you do not see these things are different, I doubt I could convince you otherwise. If you can't articulate why they are different, then perhaps the distinction isn't as clear as you seem to think. Why do you think a person incorporates a small business instead of operating as a sole proprietor? Why do you think small businesses save all kinds of receipts and pay accountants to ensure they are maximizing expenses?

Who says I can't articulate the difference? You seem to be incapable of avoiding jumping to some seriously erroneous conclusions throughout our exchange here. I most certainly can articulate the difference, and have succinctly done so more than once while reiterating what specifically I am targeting with my comments—a target you continue to ignore and brush aside. You seem to want to argue. I see no indication that w…

Drawling on with small examples that seem obvious to you is worthless. It's not articulating anything, it's only proving the point that there is no real distinction other than one method of paying the legally required amount of taxes feeling more icky to you than another.

Is your line in the sand the involvement of accountants or lawyers? Any publicly traded company needs both of those anyway even if they have extremely boring returns. So what is it that draws the line for you?

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you do not see these things are different, I doubt I could convince you otherwise. If you can't articulate why they are different, then perhaps the distinction isn't as clear as you seem to think. Why do you think a person incorporates a small business instead of operating as a sole proprietor? Why do you think small businesses save all kinds of receipts and pay accountants to ensure they are maximizing expenses?

Who says I can't articulate the difference? You seem to be incapable of avoiding jumping to some seriously erroneous conclusions throughout our exchange here. I most certainly can articulate the difference, and have succinctly done so more than once while reiterating what specifically I am targeting with my comments—a target you continue to ignore and brush aside. You seem to want to argue. I see no indication that w…

I'm interested to hear your opinion on this, but you've got to actually explain, not merely state differences and conclusions.

> Who says I can't articulate the difference?

The comments have not included one so far. What you've said is that one thing is not the same as another, but you have not included an explanation of what difference you see there as being, or how that difference leads to one thing being moral and the other immoral.

> What is lawful != what is ethical.

> The effort a corporation expends to avoid taxes, such as those under scrutiny in the matter at hand, are not at all homologous to electing to take a dependent exemption for an individual citizen.

> Reducing one's tax bill via deductions and elected credits is not the same as going to great lengths to create special structures that enable a corporation to avoid tax bills altogether.

You've said they're not the same, but you haven't explained what the differences are, why the differences are significant to this discussion, and how the differences should support your analysis of the morality. Your comments leave it to the reader to infer what the differences are between one thing or another, and draw conclusions from them that support your point.

I read your comments as expressing the point, "These things are not the same, and one of them is immoral, and if you don't agree with me already then I don't see the point of explaining." It's fine if you want to hold that opinion. However, someone wrote a comment disagreeing with that point of view, and you've attempted to rebut it. People write comments on HN because they like to analyze and understand, but your comments don't include more than a pure opinion on your part that one of these behaviors is wrong without saying why. It's not very constructive to share an opinion without being willing to explain why you think it, especially given that you responded to people who sought to discuss it.

I think a strong argument was made against your point. I will restate it: "Governments have the ability to levy taxes. If they need money they should levy a tax. It's that simple. There is no 'right amount' that a company should be paying that is more than the law requires them to pay."

I think that's a pretty good point - don't you? What is your argument for why companies should pay more tax than they're required to pay? You seem to believe that there's some morally correct amount of tax that companies are morally obligated to pay, other than the amount specified by law, but you haven't provided a justification for why that is so, or for determining what that amount is. You have just said that corporate tax avoidance is different (in an unstated way) from individual tax avoidance. Even if we agreed that they're different in many significant ways, the morality or immorality of tax avoidance does not automatically follow from recognition of differences.

You could articulate your point better by starting with, "It's immoral for corporations to seek to lower their tax burden because..." and then follow up by explaining, "It's still moral for individuals and sole proprietors to seek to lower their tax burden because ... " It would illustrate the issue much better to explain what the essential difference is, and why that difference leads to it being immoral. What are the criteria for tax avoidance in an organization or company to be immoral?

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