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We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

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Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#361

Post by Grishnakh »

Grishnakh wrote: post #319
emodendroket wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure hiring women with the aim of sexually harassing them is really what we're all talking about.

Hey, I'm just pointing out that this common trope about men discriminating against women for jobs doesn't really make that much sense, unless all the men in charge of hiring are gay (which obviously isn't the case or the claim). Seriously, what kind of straight man only wants to be around men all day long, and then (assuming he's married) come home every day to the same woman, and never get to socialize with any othe…

I love how assholes just down-mod me, but no one actually has any kind of reasonable response or refutation.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#362

Post by staticelf »

goldbrick wrote: post #109
staticelf wrote: post #26

I really like this post, that most companies require workers to be at a specific location is very strange considering our type of work. I don't want to work in Sillicon Valley, even if the work is interesting. I live in Scandinavia and for me scandinavian countries are the best to live in the world.

It boils down to 2 things: Management is incompetent to tell when work is actually being done, and management doesn't trust their employees. I'm just waiting for the day when requiring on-site commutes is regarded as backwards as it deserves.

Exactly, it costs more for the company (office space is expensive, especially in a larger city). I am also waiting for it.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#363

Post by staticelf »

ArkyBeagle wrote: post #229
staticelf wrote: post #26

I really like this post, that most companies require workers to be at a specific location is very strange considering our type of work. I don't want to work in Sillicon Valley, even if the work is interesting. I live in Scandinavia and for me scandinavian countries are the best to live in the world.

I don't know first hand, but I suspect that I'd rather be shot at dawn than live in a Scandinavian country. I tried Canada for a while ( temporary posting due to acquisition) and it just didn't work. You're used to that, and in a "measurable" way, it's semi-objectively true but it's not for everybody. I think it mainly was that I missed the sheer insanity of America where it is insane. It's something akin to codepend…

Rather be shot down than live in Scandinavia? May I ask why? We have free healthcare, free education and a good work-life balance. We have 5 weeks of vacation by law. We have parental leave, a lot of it and you may still earn a lot of money. A friend of mine took 9 months of parental leave when he got a child.

Sweden for example has more billionaires per capita then the US. Norway have so much money in their oil-fund that they could pay every Norwegian 1 million NOK and still have money left. We're safe from any storms, earthquakes and basically all natural catastrophes. The most dangerous animal is pretty much the moose. Environmental issues will hit Scandinavian countries very late compared with the US.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#364

Post by emodendroket »

Grishnakh wrote: post #319
emodendroket wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure hiring women with the aim of sexually harassing them is really what we're all talking about.

Hey, I'm just pointing out that this common trope about men discriminating against women for jobs doesn't really make that much sense, unless all the men in charge of hiring are gay (which obviously isn't the case or the claim). Seriously, what kind of straight man only wants to be around men all day long, and then (assuming he's married) come home every day to the same woman, and never get to socialize with any othe…

Well, there are a few responses:

1. Why should women be judged on attractiveness? Men are not generally judged on this standard to join orchestras or do office work. It also, perversely, punishes women for being experienced while men benefit from it, handicapping their lifetime earning power. Professional women probably do not want to spend their lives judged as eye candy.

2. Because of the first point you will still end up with a strong male bias on top of whatever natural one training creates; after all, we're looking at men of any age versus young women, for the most part, in this scenario.

3. The numbers clearly do not bear out the assertion you're making in the first place, since blind auditions significantly increase the likelihood of women being hired after auditioning. It seems your "self-evident" reasoning does not fit the facts.

4. I do not think it is true that all men want to spend more time socializing with women. I don't see how the logic you're positing works unless sexual harassment is just outright permitted. If you're not convinced that sexual harassment is bad then I guess you're operating on a different plane than most of us.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#365

Post by emodendroket »

Grishnakh wrote: post #314
saalweachter wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Playing devil's advocate, that strategy can still end up with a deficit of women. If your selection bias is (pretty ^ young) women > dudes > (unattractive v old) women, your hires are still going to be predominantly dudes, unless the talent pool is so deep there is always a qualified woman available who is also pretty and young .

You have a good point here, but just from what I've seen with symphonies, it seems like usually the performers, of both sexes, are fairly young(-ish). And they're usually all reasonably attractive. They're up on a stage for people to see them, after all, so naturally whoever's trying to keep ticket sales up is going to want them to look nice.

People don't go to the symphony to be titillated by the performers.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#366

Post by Grishnakh »

emodendroket wrote: post #364
Grishnakh wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, I'm just pointing out that this common trope about men discriminating against women for jobs doesn't really make that much sense, unless all the men in charge of hiring are gay (which obviously isn't the case or the claim). Seriously, what kind of straight man only wants to be around men all day long, and then (assuming he's married) come home every day to the same woman, and never get to socialize with any othe…

Well, there are a few responses: 1. Why should women be judged on attractiveness? Men are not generally judged on this standard to join orchestras or do office work. It also, perversely, punishes women for being experienced while men benefit from it, handicapping their lifetime earning power. Professional women probably do not want to spend their lives judged as eye candy. 2. Because of the first point you will still…

Thanks for the response, but I really don't understand where you're getting the idea that I'm advocating sexual harassment at all.

I'll go backwards: 4. So you think that most men would prefer to not have any women around them most of the time, and only want to socialize with other men? I don't know if that's true or not, but it certainly isn't the case with me. I don't really want to work in a monastery-like atmosphere devoid of females (attractive or not).

3. Maybe, but that's what I'm asking about: why would straight men only want to be around other men? Seriously, I really don't understand this at all. Are most men repressed gays or something? I actually like being in mixed environments, even if I'm not attracted to most or even any of the women. Am I weird that way?

1-2. You seem to be claiming that men aren't also judged on attractiveness, and this seems wrong. I'm quite sure a lot of studies have shown that men are indeed judged on attractiveness, though the standard is somewhat different than for men (it doesn't disfavor older men as much). Just go find a short guy (or worse, a short fat guy) and ask him how his life is going and if he perceives any discrimination.

Anyway, my point all along has not been that only young pretty women should be hired, as you seem to think, my point was that I don't understand why men would discriminate against women in hiring, because to do so would mean you're surrounding yourself with a bunch of dudes, and as I said above, I don't know about other men, but I for one do not enjoy "sausagefests"; I like mixed environments.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#367

Post by emodendroket »

Grishnakh wrote: post #366
emodendroket wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there are a few responses: 1. Why should women be judged on attractiveness? Men are not generally judged on this standard to join orchestras or do office work. It also, perversely, punishes women for being experienced while men benefit from it, handicapping their lifetime earning power. Professional women probably do not want to spend their lives judged as eye candy. 2. Because of the first point you will still…

Thanks for the response, but I really don't understand where you're getting the idea that I'm advocating sexual harassment at all. I'll go backwards: 4. So you think that most men would prefer to not have any women around them most of the time, and only want to socialize with other men? I don't know if that's true or not, but it certainly isn't the case with me. I don't really want to work in a monastery-like atmosph…

I've heard enough men vocalize such thoughts to think that a fair number of them do.

The reason I get the idea that you're advocating sexual harassment is that you keep casting this in sexual terms -- why would you want to be surrounded by men, unless you're gay? Work is not a sexual environment (let's ignore the exceptions for this conversation); why is sexual orientation relevant? Saying "hey, aren't you heterosexual? Then why don't you hire women?" manages to promote a progressive cause with regressive reasoning.

I will concede that men, too, are judged by appearance, but I think that the standard is far more lenient and, as you said, tolerant of age.

In any event, the auditions are meant to judge skill. The conclusion I reach from the success of blind auditions is that evaluators perceive playing as less skillful when they know it is done by a woman.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#368

Post by Grishnakh »

emodendroket wrote: post #367
Grishnakh wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the response, but I really don't understand where you're getting the idea that I'm advocating sexual harassment at all. I'll go backwards: 4. So you think that most men would prefer to not have any women around them most of the time, and only want to socialize with other men? I don't know if that's true or not, but it certainly isn't the case with me. I don't really want to work in a monastery-like atmosph…

I've heard enough men vocalize such thoughts to think that a fair number of them do. The reason I get the idea that you're advocating sexual harassment is that you keep casting this in sexual terms -- why would you want to be surrounded by men, unless you're gay? Work is not a sexual environment (let's ignore the exceptions for this conversation); why is sexual orientation relevant? Saying "hey, aren't you heterosexu…

>The reason I get the idea that you're advocating sexual harassment is that you keep casting this in sexual terms -- why would you want to be surrounded by men, unless you're gay? Work is not a sexual environment (let's ignore the exceptions for this conversation); why is sexual orientation relevant?

So you think that if I'm not actively looking for sex from women, that I should be perfectly happy to live a life completely devoid of any kind of female contact whatsoever?

That seems extremely disturbing to me.

Does that also mean that if I'm not actively looking to have a sex partner of a different race/ethnicity, then I should be perfectly happy to never have any kind of contact with people from other ethnic groups?

Wow, I guess on HN I'm just a real weirdo because I don't want to be surrounded by white males and be completely cut off from contact with other kinds of people.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#369

Post by im_down_w_otp »

The description of "Audition Project" as presented is questionably ethical, almost certainly violates almost everybody's pre-existing employment agreement, and puts Automattic and the contractor in a very compromised legal position in many states over the IP that the employee of the primary company is creating while on a spurious contract with Automattic.

It seems like a colossally bad idea almost all-around. I mean, would Automattic tolerate an employee working contract gigs for a potential future employer if Automattic were to be made aware that's what the employee was doing?

Weird.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#370

Post by emodendroket »

Grishnakh wrote: post #368
emodendroket wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard enough men vocalize such thoughts to think that a fair number of them do. The reason I get the idea that you're advocating sexual harassment is that you keep casting this in sexual terms -- why would you want to be surrounded by men, unless you're gay? Work is not a sexual environment (let's ignore the exceptions for this conversation); why is sexual orientation relevant? Saying "hey, aren't you heterosexu…

>The reason I get the idea that you're advocating sexual harassment is that you keep casting this in sexual terms -- why would you want to be surrounded by men, unless you're gay? Work is not a sexual environment (let's ignore the exceptions for this conversation); why is sexual orientation relevant? So you think that if I'm not actively looking for sex from women, that I should be perfectly happy to live a life comp…

No. I'm suggesting that arguing that you don't want to be surrounded exclusively by white males because "hey, I'm not gay" (implicitly, because you want to have sex with these people, or at least would not object to doing so) is somewhere between off-putting and troglodytic.
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